Are who commented first comments being removed? Are we breaking the code of conduct with this? Just so this one doesn't get deleted, I think it is kind of gimmicky and funny that VP did this and it's pretty cool that they are that confident in their skill to do so. Satisfied moderators? And I was first btw.

Does anyone actually read these?

We may add it soon, but yes, we will now delete comments that simply say "1st, 2nd" etc from now on.

Btw I don't even read the other comments.. I just count them then claim.. btw 1st is the 1st who claim 1st not first. :)

hey, maybe this comment section will become useable

@Skim is it a strategy to make sure no one will read articles anymore?

these "first, second third" commenters should be removed entirely from dbuff. like srysly people would still call it if they are 15th

This was the first time I've ever been able to put first, and of course the first post I do, that is the one they crack down on...but I understand and am glad you are doing it. I was playing the game "if you can't beat them, join them". I read all the articles that dotabuff puts up every other day or every 2 days and decent comments might actually come from it now. Keep up the post, I really enjoy the good read.

Glad the response is largely positive. I do think this is long overdue.

@4C I agree - there was literally such a small opportunity as well for me..

Anyways onto the article - I am kinda glad they aren't showing too many metas right now as being in the very average MMR bracket of 2.5k, would cause me to have to put up with idiots thinking "well the pro did it so it must be gospel"

Too much grand prize for TI., they should put a ceiling on it., then save all the money from the crowdsourced fund then valve should setup a quarterly Majors in different parts of the globe., in that way other regions may prosper or develop talents.,

Yep, very happy about deleting "first!!!1!" comments. Thanks for keeping the comments section usable.

Pub win rate stats is a complex issue and should be inferred analytically and not literally. Something should not be forgotten and that's pub win rate stats are a function of pick rate among other factors. I believe heroes could be distributed into four categories then: Op heroes, popular heroes, unpopular heroes and dead heroes. Op heroes are those that receive the most buffs, and they are usually good picks or good niche picks. Popular heroes have high win rates not necessarily because they are strong, but because pick rate stats influence their win rate in a positive manner. Unpopular heroes are similar to popular heroes but pick rate stats influence their win rate negatively. These two categories make good picks and good niche picks too. But dead heroes, these are the heroes that ban hammer has cursed them. These heroes should be avoided often.

Buen punto

good job deleting the "first" comment shat

4C is the lamest guy ive ever seen...lame lame lame...anyway this article was utterly useless now wasn't it...pretty sure the pros don't read dotabuff articles that's just for us scrubs

Maybe it's just me but dbuff's comment section is kinda "awkward". I read all articles but I rarely bother to comment. Removing the "first" comments is a good choice. Adding a reply option should be the next step and notifications the one after that.. No need for like/dislike buttons but replies is a must.

I kind of have a problem with the statement that there was a time that tournaments other than TI used to be important. Using that logic, you'd have to go 7 years into the past, before TI was a thing at all. The prize pools for other tournaments even after TI2 were shelling out 5k for first place. TI has always dwarfed other tournaments, but I'd be surprised if the percentage difference between the average non valve tournament and TI (to be clear I'm removing majors from the equation) these days has spread. It just seems to me like the opposite is true, that it used to be way more important in terms of prize money.

That being said, interviews with pros lead me to think that most of them don't care about anything else. These guys clearly see this as more than just a job, this is a passion, almost to an animalistic hunger sense of the word. They'll complain about not getting the prize money, sure, but it always feels secondary, and to that point, TI has become more and more important as it builds its history and culture. Anyone who watches the Indy 500 or Wimbledon knows what I'm getting at.

There never was a meta, just which heroes pros believe are strong for whatever reason then the community likely follows suit. Play the heroes you think are strong and that's enough. The meta is whatever you believe it to be, regardless of its popularity if it's strong then that's enough.

Noticed first, second third comments etc are getting removed - I wouldn't blame the mods if they just banned those people.

I wouldn't blame the mods if they just banned bogey654.

Lol, I've first commented a couple times. All in good fun. I don't think they'd want to ban me, as I'm a paying customer.

We don't intend on banning anyone, unless there is some excessive spam despite warnings etc.

We realize that people have been spamming 1st for ages, so it may take some getting used to to get rid of that

I'm glad Dotabuff is deleting the "first", "second", etc comments, it doesn't add anything to the section and it can be kinda annoying; good work guys!

Lol, the "1st, 2nd" comment claimers trying to salvage some pride. Btw, shouldn't people start to petition for some of the Battle Pass revenue to go into Majors as well? 25% into TI and 75% into Valve coffers doesn't sit well with me. Maybe if it was reversed ... Or at least 25% into TI and 25% evenly distributed towards the Majors, however many they decide to hold a year.

@Moroder

The fact that they put 3 mil into each Major and only 1.6 into TI should take the sting off of that a little, but the bottom line is that it's their hard work that makes the entire community possible. It's their property and they are already vastly more generous with money than any other esport, so I think it's difficult to look at them and say they are being selfish when they are under no obligation to give any money out at all.

I think you're using 'gamesmanship' in a pretty nonstandard and inaccurate way. 'Gamesmanship' is very much a derogatory term referring to strategies that give you an advantage while being legal, but in bad form - in a Dota context it might mean something like smack-talking in allchat, tactical pausing, or screaming across the desks at a LAN. Making strategic choices like obscuring your favoured strategies or picks definitely doesn't qualify.

how does it even make sense to delete those messages?
its the same crap some guys recently came out on forum with, about that 525-0 guy - who gives a shit about it? whats the point of forcefully updating his match history no one cares about, as well as deleting these comments?
why this guideline nonsense appears on dotabuff while long term huge uncovered gaps in the actual content remain?

instead of wasting time on deleting comments saying "1st" you'd better did something about the hero rankings, or somehow improved dotabuff plus which is supposed to be half of the site's income jointly with ads, and that currently offers nothing except what other websites provide for free.

also quick reminder that the search algorithm on dotabuff is still goddamn awful, particularly for common nicknames, short nicknames, and nicknames containing special signs.
bugged empty esports profiles that lead to a dead end page due to faceit games being removed from esports some time ago still persist as well.
on mobile devices when browsing any profile, the sub menu bar for the given profile still eventually overlaps with the main menu bar.

good job deleting 1st comments

triplesteal using 3 comments to make 0 points lmao sad schmuck

The batrider thing with Universe is false. It was at DAC 2015, not TI

Hmm, Brock Hall, need I remind you that the DoTA 2 community is still toxic and moving back to the main point, there are lots of incentives for Valve to put prize money into Valve-organized tournaments. For one, it helps to keep the player base intact. Coupled with the fact that DoTA 2 does not have a league-based season system like some competitive games like Overwatch and LOL that require a huge investment to secure a placement to compete, meaning that any team can register and try to get to TI through open qualifiers, and fans feel more invested in the game than other similar competitive games. It also means that the 25% Battle Pass revenue into TI prize pool is more of a calculating business decision rather than just any form of goodwill to expand the pro scene, though we can view it as both, as without the 25% contribution, I doubt that Valve can even generate even 1/5 of the revenue they are getting now, though this is mere conjecture. Plus, something that is at the back of my mind which I cannot confirm is whether Valve themselves have any partnerships with gaming accessory makers and energy drink companies. I do know for certain that pro teams have such sponsors, but whether Valve have any would be the big question, since Valve would benefit immensely from a financial viewpoint that it makes Battle Pass revenue look like peanuts, and thus justify the full investment of Battle Pass revenue back into the prize pool of Valve tournaments. Please be reminded that my argument is justified only if the above conditions are fulfilled fully, and that I am not aware of the fact of any connections between potential sponsors and Valve.

@Moroder

I'll tldr this first: the money isn't the issue, it's the structure. Going a different route altogether will prove better for everyone.

Not sure what the toxic community has to do with any of this, but I think the entire concept of injecting more and more money into single tournaments serves as spectacle to bring in viewers but does nothing to keep them invested. People who invest money into the tournament were likely to watch regardless of their monetary investment (but there is little question that Valve makes more than they would if they didn't put more into the pot). The extra prize money also doesn't do a whole lot for the stability of the player base because if you don't win or place high in any of the big three you haven't made a lot of money for the year, and in the past proved to make teams even more volatile (which is why Valve put in a trade deadline).

What makes fans invested in any sport is brand connection. Most often you see people invested in players instead of teams, but when the player retires, the fan is left looking for a new player to root for. Some people see this as good, but as you said, it is a volatile scene. Teams assemble, disband, rename, people go through open qualifiers, it's difficult to know who will get a direct invite sometimes, etc. It's the wild west, it's difficult to follow, and if you stop for a couple weeks, you come back in and have to almost relearn everything.

So sure, do the 25 into Majors (my guess is that they will do this), but it's a stopgap that won't increase stability or keep fans invested. What will, though, is structure and brand recognition. Tie the little community driven tournaments (starladder, dac, summit, etc) directly to the Majors, which forces limited slots that teams can't drop out of due to 'scheduling conflicts' or because they want to save strats for the big game. In other words, MAKE A LEAGUE. Teams will stabilize automatically, and you can still keep an open qualifier (similar to soccer or [hurk] League). People will be able to rely on seeing the same teams at each event but still have fresh faces. The community doesn't like this because it favors organizations over the player freedom, but I say screw that. It's a better product, it will retain more fans, and players are more likely to have a stable salary while still being expected to perform well.

Valve does have a few licensed mice, headphones, and mousepads, but pro players have said in the past that Valve isn't interested in going that route right now. And why would they? They make more and more money on Dota every year, so as much as people complain about the volatile pro scene, they still have little incentive to change their ways when the numbers keep going up. In the future I would actually love to see them bring in advertisement because advertisers will expect better and better products (espn style recaps, discussions, preshows, and none of that goofy crap), but more importantly, we could see MORE product that is MORE convenient, and in the end it would definitely make more money for Valve.

Good point, Brock Hall. About the toxic community, I'm referring to the fact that Valve still hasn't been able to find effective ways to discourage extreme forms of griefing for the entire online DotA community, though I'm sure you meant well when you said that Valve helped to make the "en tire community possible ", meaning helping establish the pro scene. And what you said about integrating the independent tournaments to prevent scheduling conflicts makes sense. As for a league system, I feel that it comes with both pros and cons. From a positive viewpoint, it would allow for more stability, less off-season between major tournaments, allow fans to watch pro matches on a regular basis through the year( All points you've made before. ) Pessimistically, it may give organizations too much negotiating power over players, since league systems usually require conditions to be met both monetary and otherwise ,which independent teams are unlikely to be able to fulfill, unless Valve or whatever body ends up overseeing the league makes regulations less strict over resources required to register for league placements. The league system will probably prevent bust-ups like the one Secret had over unpaid wages to players, since that is part of a league's selling point, to regulate and enforce regulations, but may disrupt new talent for entering the scene independently. And while famous teams may be picked up by sponsors, there are no guarantees that the identity of the team will be preserved , i.e. Na'Vi without Dendi. Sponsors usually favor a business first approach, after all and it may not be surprising to see entire roster changes to ensure their investment makes a mark on the map by winning. In fact, in the short term after a league system is put into place , it may well be even more volatile than after TI6.

Man this really became a huge conversation. I'm loving it. Proof that there are levelheaded people in the community.

I did mean that they helped establish the pro scene. But toxicity is in every game community and always has been. Valve is just one of many companies that struggles with it, and in my experience I've seen them make real progress. I think that's about as much as we should feasibly expect: small incremental progress. But I don't think any company can fix the problem and keep it alive at the same time.

You're right, there are cons for leagues, but most of those cons sound like things that probably should be happening anyway. Players right now hold a lot of power and I think they are pretty greedy about it (but that's clearly a personal opinion, not hard fact). Lots of hard work goes into creating a tournament, and having a league would provide the necessary checks and balances to make sure everyone is getting fair share in a timely manner. Organizations wouldn't be able to withhold funding, players couldn't drop out of tournaments, etc. Teams (players and owners) should be a little more responsible, and I would be surprised if the fees were too high for even the new teams to handle.

As for new blood, I think looking at Wings gaming alone shows how unimportant new blood can be. But in the past, CDEC, Wings, AdFinem, all have had small moments of amazing but have done very little after that. Stability in the league applies to the players abilities to be competitive in the long run as much as it does for any other aspect of the league. It would certainly be harder to get in, but isn't that the point? Good players who actually are good, not lucky. Sumail comes to mind, as does Resolution.

And you know what? They will retire some day. Dendi will someday not be on Na'Vi. I'm a Cubs fan (baseball team if you are unfamiliar with US sports) no matter who is on the team, and I stuck with the black and yellow even when they lost Puppey and Funn1k and XBOCT. Now I'm a huge fan of SonneiKo and General. If teams were more stable I don't think it would hurt player fanbase at all.

I think what we have seen this year is that teams are beginning to understand the value of sticking together for the long haul. Secret has made small changes, EG made their changes and stuck with them, Liquid is largely the same, OG, VP, IG, all are beginning to be patient. I would be somewhat surprised if sponsors didn't listen to the experience of the players and the managers in the scene.

I guess all I'm saying is that sure, there would be some changes to get used to, but as people settled into it I think they would truly embrace the positives and, just as games companies work out the kinks of toxic communities, the scene would improve over time.

You got me, not a baseball fan at all. Well, I guess we agree to disagree on certain points but all in all, I walked away with lots more than I could've hoped for when starting this ( friendly, I hope ) argument.

@Moroder

Yeah totally friendly. There is the chance, however, that both of us are looking at the situation completely wrong, because Valve may desire that the community fix the pro scene itself. They have always taken a strong stance in favor of the community running the majority of the stuff, and almost seem like the actions they have taken are done so begrudgingly (and definitely reluctantly). To place any more measures would be crossing the line of hands off and hands on, and my solution would force them into the role of dictator.

Keep commenting on articles man, it's really a great way to learn. I know I've learned tons by people countering my thoughts.

Whelp I got what I wanted haha. I'm so stoked, the system beautifully sidesteps many of the problems people were worried about while still encouraging consistency and team fortitude. I really can't believe how good it is.