Multiple crit chance on a single hero work with different instance rolls. Four Daedalus on a Kunkka, for example, means 4 rolls to hit a crit at 25% each. Missing a crit at that point is like having 1 Daedalus, swinging 4 times in a row, and not hitting a single crit; that's your odds at not hitting a crit every time you swing with that many Daedalus in your inventory. A PA with 4 Daedalus, for example, hits about as hard normally as she does with nothing but a Rapier. However, she crits with nearly every hit and so does her dagger.
At around 25% physical damage reduction her dagger hits, with a normal Daedalus crit, around 800 damage solidly and that is nearly every dagger thrown. Her in built dagger crit hits at around 1700 at that point. Removing 3 Daedalus from this equation and adding in an MKB only drops her Daedalus crit dagger to around 600 damage. That does not account, however, for the overall crit dps lost here. Someone better with math would have to do this one: I clocked her in at around 4/5 Daedalus crit average with 4 Daedalus at 800 damage per dagger and 1/5 Daedalus crit average with 1 Daedalus and 1 MKB at 600 damage per dagger.
P.S. No mini bash crits were recorded.
And yes, this is assuming PA at this point, is just a walking dagger dispenser in the back lines.
And for this build it would most likely be Bfury, Daedalus, Daedalus, Brown Boots, Rapier, MKB.
The attack speed would move it towards mkb not Daedalus. more attack speed benefits the flat damage bonus mkb gives more than %bonus that Daedalus gives.
And Dom+deso ya mistake just making some random build not like orb stacking matters for this. If I replaced deso with like AC or something it would just skew the numbers more in favour of mkb.
Daedalus gives more +damage than mkb and has no attack speed inbuilt. Not to mention since it is a %increase the more dps you have the more it becomes favourable compared to mkb. So giving blink strike attack speed should definitely favour daedalus builds. Just chucking some stuff into http://devilesk.com/dota2/apps/hero-calculator/.
Phase vlads deso daed 16 pa with no blink strike - 504.86
Phase vlads deso mkb 16 pa with no blink strike - 489.92
Phase vlads deso daed 16 pa with blink strike - 877.38
Phase vlads deso mkb 16 pa with blink strike - 829.77
So yeah adding blink strike makes daed more favourable. Overall not a huge difference, unless you are 100% sure they aren't going to get any evasion I think stay away from daedalus and just get utility shit like abyssal or diffu blade.
Attack speed is irrelevant. It's just another modifier to your DPS. Adding the blink strike 100 attack speed shouldn't matter. It might slightly less beneficial for mkb because mkb already gives you attack speed and it doesn't linearly increase but otherwise it's irrelevant.
u dont buy mkb for damage u buy it for its anti-evasion. which is also why bloodthorns better in a lot of cases, unlses ur against bkb carries where u need to be able to kill them in bkb (very true against heros like gyro or smth, where u cant bloodthorn them during bkb) - the evasion cancel of bloodthorn makes it a great alternative in a lot of cases. even if they have dispels, u only need it to be applied for a second and a half to get 3 shots and hopefully a kill.
ur itemization as pa and most carries that have a lot of needs should fulfill a specific purpose with each item, when u have needs such as tankiness, lockdown, etc u need things like bkb abyssal first and then theres a ton of items like ac or bloodthorn or w.e that r better. mkbs quite good against evasion heroes however and should always be bought if u need to kill a hero with evasion (sometimes u have another hero that can kill them)
What if your need is just to kill someone as fast as possible and you don't care about lockdown/tankiness? I'm sure there are situations where that is a thing, such as if you have an aegis and you have a tide+silencer or something similar. In that case daedalus gives the best dps out of any item -> it has a place, even if it is very situational. Ofc if you need tankiness or lockdown and you buy a daedalus you're a fucking idiot but that goes for any hero in the game that would consider a daedalus.
Theoretically and technically speaking, the more crit you have, the higher your dps is going to be. Six slot Daedalus is technically about as high dps as you can get, with the interchangeable numbers switching 1-3 Daedalus out for high attack speed items. That's mathematically speaking, so, science. That doesn't actually mean Daedalus is the best item for her compared to nearly about every other item in the game, it just means her dps goes highest with more damage items/more crit. Theoretically, that works for pretty much every hero in dota, though. Theoretically, communism sounds kind of nice; but we all know how reality turned out for that one. So yeah, Daedalus = bad, face on fire = bad, bullet to the head = bad.
mkb bash is a .01 second stun guys, thats not lockdown
there is no hero mkb is core on, because it is AN EVASION COUNTER ONLY
if they have no evasion at all crit increases ur chance of killing someone in abyssal significantly. sometimes that is what you need, sometimes it isnt
MKB certainly isn't a core item on any hero, but it does do better on some than it does on others.
The best example of this is when WR can maximize the bash damage starting at level 6.
35% chance per hit to proc an extra 160 bonus damage. That's pretty good on heroes that can get near max attack speed by the 10 minute mark. I don't suggest buying it that early or anything, but my first statement does stand. It's close to a core item on a very select few, but even then, it's just how you said it.
sometimes that is what you need, sometimes it isnt
"there is no hero mkb is core on, because it is AN EVASION COUNTER ONLY"
That's so fucking false, what about ranged heroes on which abyssal blows? Sniper, medusa, drow, clinkz, luna, windranger would all like a word with you. Mkb let's them have a reliable interrupt for channeling, tp's.
On PA because she already had crit daedulus is such a tiny dps upgrade over mkb, here's link to build with deso, vlads, bkb, phase, abyssal and mkb/daedulus. DPS difference is 827 mkb to 871 daedulus. Do you really need an extra 44 dps or 5% to lose the mini bash utility and evasion counter? Almost every game has a hero who can fit evasion into their build, halberd is good on tons of str heroes and butter on every agility hero.
Now where I said it makes a bigger difference on other heroes look at sniper. I made up a resonable sniper progression build with mjollnir, butterfly, treads, s&y, hurricane pike and daedulus/mkb. Because he doesn't have innate crit the crit is a much bigger increase in dps taking him from 1495 to 1719, a much bigger increase of 224 or ~15%. That's a hero where you actually need to weigh whether you need the mkb utility or not cus the difference is big. On PA it's so negligable I don't think I'd ever build daedulus just in the off chance someone gets evasion late in the game. I don't really see any good PA build with both daedulus and mkb, well you could of course sell deso late.
^^ this is literally the mentality that I'm talking about
sniper medusa drow clinkz and luna would all rather have crit than mkb if theres no evasion LUL
this is a basic fucking thing that loses people games
if you buy mkb and not crit vs no evasion on dusa, drow, luna, or sniper ur raping ur own dps for no reason, might as well drop ur boots and destroy them, it will have the same effect on ur usefulness
pa is actually the closest thing to a hero that would just rather get a damn mkb, because people will get evasion eventually and pa needs other items probably (ac, satanic, etc) instead of ending up forced to have crit AND mkb/thorn
MAYBE if ur talking about when mkb had a shittier bash and 88 damage you might have a point, heroes like dusa, gyro, PA benefit greatly from the higher damage and have innate steroids that don't mesh with crit
but they changed mkb so now its just a gimpy damage item with worse single target than crit and worse damage on aoe heroes than crit, its only useful for truestrike EVER
like canceling tps is something you need at 50 minutes on a hero like sniper, who already has a ministun on his ult and does enough damage to kill people outright anyway
people talk so much about this fucking minibash. it lasts less than a tenth of a second, which makes it useful for cancelling autoattack animations and channeling spells. from a manfight perspective on every third hit it might shave off 1/2 of a heroes hit (halfway thru animation and have to redo)
MKB is an item that is needed in a lot of games, because hmm their 12/2/5 huskar has a halberd and a solar crest, or their drow has bfly, not hurr durr I have 5000 gold and would rather stun people .01s than have 36% increased dps in the form of on-hit burst damage
Sniper's cast time on ult is 2 seconds, plus travel time to cancel a 3s tp, that's very doable but not impossible to miss, you have to react to a tp almost immediately. Mkb makes it damn near impossible to miss interrupting. Or witch dr ulting your whole team, do you really want to have to ult him to stop that channel or switch switch targets for a couple auto attacks? Not to mention idk if it stuns through magic immunity.
I'm just saying when you scream it's only for evasion counters that is so wrong. Plus crit is kind of wasted on medusa and luna anyway since they have aoe attacks that can't crit. Of course luna's glavies also ignore evasion on bounces so it's like sven, hit the target next door if they have evasion.
ur not going to channel ult vs witch doctor, ur going to click on him and watch him die in 4 hits or if he ghosts, pike away and shoot someone else
other heroes on ur team are walking around with stuns, why would i sacrifice 36% dps for minor utility? i buy mkb on sniper often, because i often must counter evasion to win the game
playing these right click heroes i need to do the maximum damage without dying to influence the game, so sacrificing so much dps is only worth it if i need true strike
ur both huge retards nobody fucking cares about your ability to cancel tps as sniper ur not fucking roaming around as a sniper trying to kill people 15 minutes in like a bloodseeker
^^ I assume hes talking about someone trying to tp out in ur face at 50 minutes??? but ur not alone so it doesn't matter unless you have 2k draft viper + drow + sniper + riki + tb or sth
deadelas is a late game item, one gotten at a point when PA starts to fall off naturally. Likely you will have at least one other high dps core that has taken on the responsibility of killing people. What PA needs at this point is ways to survive a teamfight and get out what damage she can, usually to the backline supports because of blinkstrike.
Basically what I'm saying is at this point increasing your dps 5% is not better if you cannot survive the teamfight. YOu will get more damage in by being able to survive and attack multiple people.
Listen man windranger benefits more from daedulus in terms of damage, as do all heroes. More attackspeed may mean more chance to proc bonus mkb dmg but it also means more chance to proc crit, hugely increasing dps.
On topic: But pa already has crit so why not increase her base damage off of which she crits? Butterfly comes to mind. I mean, sure the evasion is wasted. But butter will still be better than deadulus bcuz of armor and attck speed which it gives, along with base dmg. Another item which far eclispses daedulus on pa wud be AC, the benefits of which are obvious
Daedalus is +dmg and +%dps (the crit)
MKB is +dmg and %chance for +dmg
Attack speed benefits MKB more than Daeadlus.
Manta/Diffusal would likely be better for MKB and close the gap more.
Multiple crit chance on a single hero work with different instance rolls. Four Daedalus on a Kunkka, for example, means 4 rolls to hit a crit at 25% each. Missing a crit at that point is like having 1 Daedalus, swinging 4 times in a row, and not hitting a single crit; that's your odds at not hitting a crit every time you swing with that many Daedalus in your inventory. A PA with 4 Daedalus, for example, hits about as hard normally as she does with nothing but a Rapier. However, she crits with nearly every hit and so does her dagger.
At around 25% physical damage reduction her dagger hits, with a normal Daedalus crit, around 800 damage solidly and that is nearly every dagger thrown. Her in built dagger crit hits at around 1700 at that point. Removing 3 Daedalus from this equation and adding in an MKB only drops her Daedalus crit dagger to around 600 damage. That does not account, however, for the overall crit dps lost here. Someone better with math would have to do this one: I clocked her in at around 4/5 Daedalus crit average with 4 Daedalus at 800 damage per dagger and 1/5 Daedalus crit average with 1 Daedalus and 1 MKB at 600 damage per dagger.
P.S. No mini bash crits were recorded.
And yes, this is assuming PA at this point, is just a walking dagger dispenser in the back lines.
And for this build it would most likely be Bfury, Daedalus, Daedalus, Brown Boots, Rapier, MKB.
Couple things wrong with Marlans post:
1. Ult increases damage by 52.5% not 67.5%
2. His picture doesn't match his post. His picture clearly shows Daed does ~9% more damage.
You can't crit a minibash.
Why is it 52.5%?
Isn't it just 450*0.15?
Because you already do 100%. That's not part of her ult
So it's 350*.15
oh right I forgot about that
updated my page to show correct values
Why do you have deso and satanic in the same build? But yeah mkb utility makes it better than daedulus on PA. Other heroes it's debatable
Did you account for 100 attack speed off blink strike? That would certainly move the calculation in favour of daedalus.
i seriously hope nobody actualyl thinks daedalus on pa is a good item lol
The attack speed would move it towards mkb not Daedalus. more attack speed benefits the flat damage bonus mkb gives more than %bonus that Daedalus gives.
And Dom+deso ya mistake just making some random build not like orb stacking matters for this. If I replaced deso with like AC or something it would just skew the numbers more in favour of mkb.
ur only getting mkb for evasion ever
if you get mkb when its not because of evasion or possible evasion or blind chance u need to rethink ur life
Silly Riko poster
Daedalus gives more +damage than mkb and has no attack speed inbuilt. Not to mention since it is a %increase the more dps you have the more it becomes favourable compared to mkb. So giving blink strike attack speed should definitely favour daedalus builds. Just chucking some stuff into http://devilesk.com/dota2/apps/hero-calculator/.
Phase vlads deso daed 16 pa with no blink strike - 504.86
Phase vlads deso mkb 16 pa with no blink strike - 489.92
Phase vlads deso daed 16 pa with blink strike - 877.38
Phase vlads deso mkb 16 pa with blink strike - 829.77
So yeah adding blink strike makes daed more favourable. Overall not a huge difference, unless you are 100% sure they aren't going to get any evasion I think stay away from daedalus and just get utility shit like abyssal or diffu blade.
please do not ever ever ever get daedalus on phantom assassin thank you
i can guarantee there are much much better options than it in any of your games, such as bloodthorn, mkb, or abyssal
yeah I used to play pa before bloodthorn
that's probably usually better now tbh
I did the math turns out my intuition was wrong.
Attack speed is irrelevant. It's just another modifier to your DPS. Adding the blink strike 100 attack speed shouldn't matter. It might slightly less beneficial for mkb because mkb already gives you attack speed and it doesn't linearly increase but otherwise it's irrelevant.
increase chance of rate critical?
i think more attack speed better.
and 100% critical maybe bloodthorn better than daedalus on pa.
u dont buy mkb for damage u buy it for its anti-evasion. which is also why bloodthorns better in a lot of cases, unlses ur against bkb carries where u need to be able to kill them in bkb (very true against heros like gyro or smth, where u cant bloodthorn them during bkb) - the evasion cancel of bloodthorn makes it a great alternative in a lot of cases. even if they have dispels, u only need it to be applied for a second and a half to get 3 shots and hopefully a kill.
ur itemization as pa and most carries that have a lot of needs should fulfill a specific purpose with each item, when u have needs such as tankiness, lockdown, etc u need things like bkb abyssal first and then theres a ton of items like ac or bloodthorn or w.e that r better. mkbs quite good against evasion heroes however and should always be bought if u need to kill a hero with evasion (sometimes u have another hero that can kill them)
What if your need is just to kill someone as fast as possible and you don't care about lockdown/tankiness? I'm sure there are situations where that is a thing, such as if you have an aegis and you have a tide+silencer or something similar. In that case daedalus gives the best dps out of any item -> it has a place, even if it is very situational. Ofc if you need tankiness or lockdown and you buy a daedalus you're a fucking idiot but that goes for any hero in the game that would consider a daedalus.
Daedalus is only marginally more DPS than MKB.
The bash/lockdown/utility of MKB is much better.
Only reason you'd buy Daedalus is if you REALLY only need more damage, and you already have an mkb.
Theoretically and technically speaking, the more crit you have, the higher your dps is going to be. Six slot Daedalus is technically about as high dps as you can get, with the interchangeable numbers switching 1-3 Daedalus out for high attack speed items. That's mathematically speaking, so, science. That doesn't actually mean Daedalus is the best item for her compared to nearly about every other item in the game, it just means her dps goes highest with more damage items/more crit. Theoretically, that works for pretty much every hero in dota, though. Theoretically, communism sounds kind of nice; but we all know how reality turned out for that one. So yeah, Daedalus = bad, face on fire = bad, bullet to the head = bad.
mkb bash is a .01 second stun guys, thats not lockdown
there is no hero mkb is core on, because it is AN EVASION COUNTER ONLY
if they have no evasion at all crit increases ur chance of killing someone in abyssal significantly. sometimes that is what you need, sometimes it isnt
MKB certainly isn't a core item on any hero, but it does do better on some than it does on others.
The best example of this is when WR can maximize the bash damage starting at level 6.
35% chance per hit to proc an extra 160 bonus damage. That's pretty good on heroes that can get near max attack speed by the 10 minute mark. I don't suggest buying it that early or anything, but my first statement does stand. It's close to a core item on a very select few, but even then, it's just how you said it.
aite im triggered but as long as this shit isnt in my games im ok with it
"there is no hero mkb is core on, because it is AN EVASION COUNTER ONLY"
That's so fucking false, what about ranged heroes on which abyssal blows? Sniper, medusa, drow, clinkz, luna, windranger would all like a word with you. Mkb let's them have a reliable interrupt for channeling, tp's.
Marlan you don't need to do all that match by hand, just go here: http://devilesk.com/dota2/apps/hero-calculator/
On PA because she already had crit daedulus is such a tiny dps upgrade over mkb, here's link to build with deso, vlads, bkb, phase, abyssal and mkb/daedulus. DPS difference is 827 mkb to 871 daedulus. Do you really need an extra 44 dps or 5% to lose the mini bash utility and evasion counter? Almost every game has a hero who can fit evasion into their build, halberd is good on tons of str heroes and butter on every agility hero.
http://devilesk.com/dota2/apps/hero-calculator/?id=V8pVXb8S4wAL8Q2d
Now where I said it makes a bigger difference on other heroes look at sniper. I made up a resonable sniper progression build with mjollnir, butterfly, treads, s&y, hurricane pike and daedulus/mkb. Because he doesn't have innate crit the crit is a much bigger increase in dps taking him from 1495 to 1719, a much bigger increase of 224 or ~15%. That's a hero where you actually need to weigh whether you need the mkb utility or not cus the difference is big. On PA it's so negligable I don't think I'd ever build daedulus just in the off chance someone gets evasion late in the game. I don't really see any good PA build with both daedulus and mkb, well you could of course sell deso late.
Sniper build http://devilesk.com/dota2/apps/hero-calculator/?id=wKJ4ei36XyRffMWy
^^ this is literally the mentality that I'm talking about
sniper medusa drow clinkz and luna would all rather have crit than mkb if theres no evasion LUL
this is a basic fucking thing that loses people games
if you buy mkb and not crit vs no evasion on dusa, drow, luna, or sniper ur raping ur own dps for no reason, might as well drop ur boots and destroy them, it will have the same effect on ur usefulness
pa is actually the closest thing to a hero that would just rather get a damn mkb, because people will get evasion eventually and pa needs other items probably (ac, satanic, etc) instead of ending up forced to have crit AND mkb/thorn
MAYBE if ur talking about when mkb had a shittier bash and 88 damage you might have a point, heroes like dusa, gyro, PA benefit greatly from the higher damage and have innate steroids that don't mesh with crit
but they changed mkb so now its just a gimpy damage item with worse single target than crit and worse damage on aoe heroes than crit, its only useful for truestrike EVER
like canceling tps is something you need at 50 minutes on a hero like sniper, who already has a ministun on his ult and does enough damage to kill people outright anyway
people talk so much about this fucking minibash. it lasts less than a tenth of a second, which makes it useful for cancelling autoattack animations and channeling spells. from a manfight perspective on every third hit it might shave off 1/2 of a heroes hit (halfway thru animation and have to redo)
MKB is an item that is needed in a lot of games, because hmm their 12/2/5 huskar has a halberd and a solar crest, or their drow has bfly, not hurr durr I have 5000 gold and would rather stun people .01s than have 36% increased dps in the form of on-hit burst damage
Sniper's cast time on ult is 2 seconds, plus travel time to cancel a 3s tp, that's very doable but not impossible to miss, you have to react to a tp almost immediately. Mkb makes it damn near impossible to miss interrupting. Or witch dr ulting your whole team, do you really want to have to ult him to stop that channel or switch switch targets for a couple auto attacks? Not to mention idk if it stuns through magic immunity.
I'm just saying when you scream it's only for evasion counters that is so wrong. Plus crit is kind of wasted on medusa and luna anyway since they have aoe attacks that can't crit. Of course luna's glavies also ignore evasion on bounces so it's like sven, hit the target next door if they have evasion.
ur not going to channel ult vs witch doctor, ur going to click on him and watch him die in 4 hits or if he ghosts, pike away and shoot someone else
other heroes on ur team are walking around with stuns, why would i sacrifice 36% dps for minor utility? i buy mkb on sniper often, because i often must counter evasion to win the game
playing these right click heroes i need to do the maximum damage without dying to influence the game, so sacrificing so much dps is only worth it if i need true strike
its a minor thing but minor things lose games
ur both huge retards nobody fucking cares about your ability to cancel tps as sniper ur not fucking roaming around as a sniper trying to kill people 15 minutes in like a bloodseeker
^^ I assume hes talking about someone trying to tp out in ur face at 50 minutes??? but ur not alone so it doesn't matter unless you have 2k draft viper + drow + sniper + riki + tb or sth
this isnt practical at all.
desolator if gotten early , is the deadliest weapon in the game for PA
deadelas is a late game item, one gotten at a point when PA starts to fall off naturally. Likely you will have at least one other high dps core that has taken on the responsibility of killing people. What PA needs at this point is ways to survive a teamfight and get out what damage she can, usually to the backline supports because of blinkstrike.
Basically what I'm saying is at this point increasing your dps 5% is not better if you cannot survive the teamfight. YOu will get more damage in by being able to survive and attack multiple people.
@ BB]CardonaNotta
Listen man windranger benefits more from daedulus in terms of damage, as do all heroes. More attackspeed may mean more chance to proc bonus mkb dmg but it also means more chance to proc crit, hugely increasing dps.
On topic: But pa already has crit so why not increase her base damage off of which she crits? Butterfly comes to mind. I mean, sure the evasion is wasted. But butter will still be better than deadulus bcuz of armor and attck speed which it gives, along with base dmg. Another item which far eclispses daedulus on pa wud be AC, the benefits of which are obvious
Ehy you dont build3 bf better for i4