@Relentless
interesting perspective, but using it, Id say that anyone still can achieve 6k, but everyone cant (sounds terrible). the idea is that the average level of progress is relatively low just cz most people dont play that much. if you simply spend more time on playing, you will (most probably) progress faster than average and improve without being stacked at any point for a long while.
What you say is mathematically correct, but you just use some assumptions that are not true.
its like a crowd in metro, in which everyone walks in one direction. everyone cant run first at a time cause it is theroically impossible, but anyone can be among the head of the crowd if walking fast enough or even running. Im 1.93m high and obviously walk fast than most people, but even a 1.45 girl can run and be faster than me walking. And how many people in a crowd would run? Very, very few. Less than 0.1% I guess. And some of them would run slower than you.
"Reality is that most people are limited to being average. Reality is that the vast majority cannot even achieve being among the top 10%"
Apparently, you dont have much experience in climbing ladders in online games, because what you say is far from reality, and not in dota world only.
p.s You dont have to react that agressively and try to offend my point of view in case you dont understand it and your theorycraftings give another answer. And dont touch my education, please. You confused "anyone" to "everyone at a time" and did a logical mistake applying maths, it doesnt mean I lack of education.
triplesteal you've made some arguments in a civil manner so i'll respond 1 last time (cuz i'm tired and i want to sleep)
let me guess, you're 6k or close to 6k...and u think...it isn't particularly difficult for you, so it can't possibly be difficult for other people.
have you ever read bogi's threads? that guy has over 2000 ranked solo games and is barely 5k, and struggled in the 4k bracket for over a year lol.
and it's not like he doesn't play broken heroes either, he has countless games of slark/brood
i don't know how to make this case any simpler.
1) everyone cannot get 6k or even 5k, or else that becomes the new "average"
2) not anyone can get 6k or even 5k, even if they play for years (which rules out "lack of practice" as a factor). only those with untapped POTENTIAL SKILL (i.e. skill that isn't realized because they haven't played the game properly, but are capable of doing so) can achieve those numbers, but that's not something we can measure reliably
are all ur dota friends on steam who have played dota for years with over 2000 games 5k+? 6k+? doubt it
and furthermore, if ur hypothesis is correct, why not extend it further? why can't anyone achieve 7k? why stop at 6k? isn't that a little arbitrary? why do u specifically choose 6k as the cutoff point? (6k is like top 0.01% or something)
there are people who have much more room to improve, and there are those who don't. you can force those who are already nearing their peak to sit in front of a computer for 8 hours/day and play dota every day for a year, and they will still not be 6k.
@Frozen
I see your points :)
Firstly, Im not close to 6k. I barely overpassed 5k barrier.
Secondly, I got 5-6k games, or even more. Im a dota 1 player, and I dont improve really fast tbh.
In general, I just disagree with the fact that people have mental barriers which wont let them improve their dota skills after a certain point. Of course, you cant become an absolute player, but even pros are so far from that atm and do so many mistakes!
I feel like it's hard to prove my point here though, cz its too theoretical. I believe that any dota player can improve if he/she spends enough time and applies effort, no matter how good he/she is atm.
Triple is my buddy - so I totally support his arguements in this forum (but will give him later shit about it in personal chat - where the audience is missing and these individual opinions can be sorted out). Anyways, Triple is right and has a good heart. Im a fanboy. what can i say.
back to topic @shine
Let me give you an advice. You are very focused on dota. It seems to be very important to you and you seem to plan a career. Dota is not simply a game for you anymore. You have to realize that your mmr is not important for getting better at Dota. Dont be sad if you lose. That only leads to tilting. (god that happens to me so often - man, am I a horrible preacher or what??) You have yet to learn a lot to get better. Look at it like this: Every stomping 25 min game, ending in a +25, is a loss for yourself, because you didn't learn anything new about dota. And you need to learn so much more. For example when I play, I realize that I am making a couple of mistakes every minute. I am aware of them - but havent found a way to execute my plays better. But I notice also that those mistakes become less. That could mean that I am getting better or simply need to look for new approaches, new mistakes.
But most important: you are just 17 years old. You need to prioritize in your young life and right now I sense some drama. Get done w the drama. Put it behind you - then you can stop feeling sorry for yourself and start embracing your skills. Its the self-confidence, which puts you ahead of others and not the self-doubt.
Let me explain self confidence in dota: Its not bragging about that your better than your friends or your teammates. Its accepting what your strengths and weaknesses are and thus working on those.
So far - your strength: Your not afraid to being challenged in 1on1 situations. Your motivated and mb even talented
So far - your weakness: You suffer Dunning Kruger. Find out how much you dont know - then ask specifically for advice.
I dont know if this made any sense. I just poured my heart out.
As far as I remember 4.2k had 99% quantile, and I think it is possible that only about 1% of players can consistently have higher rating without re-calibrating, just by playing enough matches on the same acc (in order to exclude random errors).
here's the thing, i can't "prove" that talent exists without significant data about genetic and physiological qualities of human beings, and i'm not a biologist so i'd have to do vast amounts of research that i'm not interested in/would take way too much time.
however, some basic logic + observation tells me it exists, otherwise people who spend thousands of hours on dota 2 (no lack of hard work/effort) would be 5k already. but they're not, some people like mason didn't even play dota 1 and got third place in the TI, while some ppl with the most games (7000+) on dotabuff are 4k. definitely not equal at all in terms of skill, due to unequal rates of return based on time spent
but you are correct, if people put in time to practice, they will improve...the only difference is how much potential skill that's unrealized. that's not something we can reliably measure, but suffice to say, if you believe you can get 6k, then good for you, and hopefully you reach it.
but not everyone is cut out for this game and once you accept everyone has their own limits, then you'll probably be more satisfied with what you already have
skill is a loaded term, but for the sake of the discussion, it means winning games whether you're playing on a professional team for money, or winning high level pubs consistently (obviously some people will pick broken heroes for the latter, but i won't dissect that)
this includes everything from your attitude, your mechanics, your ability to see/anticipate enemy actions, your knowledge about hero picks, your item choices, etc. separating attitude from skill is moot because you could be among the most highly skilled in the world but continue throwing games, and nobody would care. when ranked first came out i would feed courier/suicide into enemy team like 20 times just to piss off my team, and mm wouldn't make any distinction between me and any 4k shitter who tries in his matches and fails
"lol i'm a genius, i just refuse to work hard" = same results as some idiot who spends hours learning simple tasks. if u don't like my definition you can use merriam-webster and see for yourself why attitude and skill are intricately linked
so if bogi was 6k mechanically (sorry, but if anyone suggested this i would laugh, i've seen him play before and he's definitely not 6k even if u factor out attitude completely since he rarely uses creep aggro and misses a lot of last hits) and 4k in attitude...that would still lead to the same results
tl;dr if he hasn't improved his attitude after 2000+ ranked games then it's unlikely he will in the next 1000-2000 games, human personalities aren't perfectly malleable. i've been a rager in dota 1 since i started playing and i still rage, there's no getting around it no matter how hard i try and suppress my emotions.
kitrak a lot of your "counterarguments" are based on semantics/vague arguments ("mason approached the game differently?" what does that mean? how is that not a part of skill anyways?) and don't refute my contention that some people are simply better at certain tasks at others, given the same amount of time. none of the examples you brought up are inconsistent with my argument at all. if you ask 10 people with GOOD attitudes to study quantum mechanics (all good students and hard working people), and then you quiz each of their understanding 200 hours later, you think you'll get the same results from all of them? hardly, i knew many people who "worked hard" in school and they still sucked in certain subjects that i didn't need to lift a finger to get good grades in, if you apply that to clearly advanced topics in the sciences/maths you'll clearly see discrepancies in ability to absorb information.
note that it doesn't matter if these results are due to some people having better study habits (i.e. equivalent to the nuances you brought up about why some players are better at dota), better cognitive capabilities, or whatever, you end up with vastly different results that can't be fully explained by simply "some people work harder than others"
and that's perfectly fine, being good in certain tasks does not make you inferior or superior to anyone else, i have never once yet claimed being naturally better at dota (or anything) makes you a superior/more worthy human being, though to be fair, the way i talk to people in game, you would never think that LOL ;D
@hushhush "I am aware of them - but havent found a way to execute my plays better." I have exactly same thing, even tho, i feel i can't compare myself to you... I know my mistakes, i even feel it instantly - once i make one, but i can't stop making them. I understand what i had to do there, and what would've came out of it if i didn't go there etc. I see those mistakes when i make them, i see those mistakes in my replays, but i just keep making them! Sometimes, i end up doing circles with my hero and thinking what happens if i go farm there, will i die or is it safe for me to do that or this, and so on. When i can't decide whether i should go somewhere, to help my teammates or not, i just go farm, because I am afraid to go die somewhere/feed. Basically, it's like that even in my real life, i'm not one of the smartest guys, and i can't come up with genius ideas instantly - like good players do.
Usually, there's like one day in the month, when i can win like all games of mine and i don't even think about decisions i make, it just happens somehow. And the only reason why i feel comfortable when playing tinker, is just that I don't waste time on deciding what should i do next or what i shouldn't do at all, i just see something, and do something and it's okay(even tho it can always be better). With other heroes, which i tryhard with even more (e.g. Shadow Fiend or Invoker) i can never make right move, i'll always make a mistake first, even if i'll understand it later or the same moment i make it, the next decision i'll make will probably be wrong again.
So, specifically I need advice for well known decision making, i guess so?
@denderis/OP
it is normal to make mistakes. That's how u learn. Dunning Kruger's wisdom says that u need to be aware of them in order to get rid of them. Eventually dota comes down to this: the less mistakes you make the better you get. You dont need genius ideas in order to get good at dota - you need to learn whats known already + execute it. Once you mastered this you might find out something genius. But that is a general rule in life - learn the basics first. So watch a replay - find out what u did wrong. Last hitting? Find a guide. Warding? Find a guide. Countering a specific pick? Find a guide. You are overwhelmed by the mistakes you see? Pick one and find a guide. Then try again. Try again. Try again. This is training. Training takes time. Some people claim that it takes about 10,000 hours to become really good at anything. So how much time do u have on ur dota clock? 100 hours? 500 hours? 1000 hours? Not enough.
One thought on decision making:
Decisions are based on ur knowledge, feelings and on assumptions. Take this into account! If u have a bad day, u will suddenly make decisions u know are wrong! I talked about basic knowledge in the first paragraph (tl;dr lol), but once u have enough knowledge - u need assumptions/anticipation to be right. For example in a teamfight: 5v5? how many HP vs HP? How much dmg vs dmg? Did u take towers/creeps into acc? How much mana vs mana? XP vs XP? Gold vs gold? these questions lead to the anticipated answer: "go or back". That's having a sense or a feeling for the game and making right decisions.
but tbh, i dont think that is the greatest problem. You need to get ahead as fast as possible as mid laner - so i guess first of all u should work on ur farm-efficiency and skills in laning phase. Then seize opportunities asap and not be lazy. If you are ahead, its ez.
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@Relentless
interesting perspective, but using it, Id say that anyone still can achieve 6k, but everyone cant (sounds terrible). the idea is that the average level of progress is relatively low just cz most people dont play that much. if you simply spend more time on playing, you will (most probably) progress faster than average and improve without being stacked at any point for a long while.
What you say is mathematically correct, but you just use some assumptions that are not true.
its like a crowd in metro, in which everyone walks in one direction. everyone cant run first at a time cause it is theroically impossible, but anyone can be among the head of the crowd if walking fast enough or even running. Im 1.93m high and obviously walk fast than most people, but even a 1.45 girl can run and be faster than me walking. And how many people in a crowd would run? Very, very few. Less than 0.1% I guess. And some of them would run slower than you.
"Reality is that most people are limited to being average. Reality is that the vast majority cannot even achieve being among the top 10%"
Apparently, you dont have much experience in climbing ladders in online games, because what you say is far from reality, and not in dota world only.
p.s You dont have to react that agressively and try to offend my point of view in case you dont understand it and your theorycraftings give another answer. And dont touch my education, please. You confused "anyone" to "everyone at a time" and did a logical mistake applying maths, it doesnt mean I lack of education.
triplesteal you've made some arguments in a civil manner so i'll respond 1 last time (cuz i'm tired and i want to sleep)
let me guess, you're 6k or close to 6k...and u think...it isn't particularly difficult for you, so it can't possibly be difficult for other people.
have you ever read bogi's threads? that guy has over 2000 ranked solo games and is barely 5k, and struggled in the 4k bracket for over a year lol.
and it's not like he doesn't play broken heroes either, he has countless games of slark/brood
i don't know how to make this case any simpler.
1) everyone cannot get 6k or even 5k, or else that becomes the new "average"
2) not anyone can get 6k or even 5k, even if they play for years (which rules out "lack of practice" as a factor). only those with untapped POTENTIAL SKILL (i.e. skill that isn't realized because they haven't played the game properly, but are capable of doing so) can achieve those numbers, but that's not something we can measure reliably
are all ur dota friends on steam who have played dota for years with over 2000 games 5k+? 6k+? doubt it
and furthermore, if ur hypothesis is correct, why not extend it further? why can't anyone achieve 7k? why stop at 6k? isn't that a little arbitrary? why do u specifically choose 6k as the cutoff point? (6k is like top 0.01% or something)
there are people who have much more room to improve, and there are those who don't. you can force those who are already nearing their peak to sit in front of a computer for 8 hours/day and play dota every day for a year, and they will still not be 6k.
@Frozen
I see your points :)
Firstly, Im not close to 6k. I barely overpassed 5k barrier.
Secondly, I got 5-6k games, or even more. Im a dota 1 player, and I dont improve really fast tbh.
In general, I just disagree with the fact that people have mental barriers which wont let them improve their dota skills after a certain point. Of course, you cant become an absolute player, but even pros are so far from that atm and do so many mistakes!
I feel like it's hard to prove my point here though, cz its too theoretical. I believe that any dota player can improve if he/she spends enough time and applies effort, no matter how good he/she is atm.
Triple is my buddy - so I totally support his arguements in this forum (but will give him later shit about it in personal chat - where the audience is missing and these individual opinions can be sorted out). Anyways, Triple is right and has a good heart. Im a fanboy. what can i say.
back to topic @shine
Let me give you an advice. You are very focused on dota. It seems to be very important to you and you seem to plan a career. Dota is not simply a game for you anymore. You have to realize that your mmr is not important for getting better at Dota. Dont be sad if you lose. That only leads to tilting. (god that happens to me so often - man, am I a horrible preacher or what??) You have yet to learn a lot to get better. Look at it like this: Every stomping 25 min game, ending in a +25, is a loss for yourself, because you didn't learn anything new about dota. And you need to learn so much more. For example when I play, I realize that I am making a couple of mistakes every minute. I am aware of them - but havent found a way to execute my plays better. But I notice also that those mistakes become less. That could mean that I am getting better or simply need to look for new approaches, new mistakes.
But most important: you are just 17 years old. You need to prioritize in your young life and right now I sense some drama. Get done w the drama. Put it behind you - then you can stop feeling sorry for yourself and start embracing your skills. Its the self-confidence, which puts you ahead of others and not the self-doubt.
Let me explain self confidence in dota: Its not bragging about that your better than your friends or your teammates. Its accepting what your strengths and weaknesses are and thus working on those.
So far - your strength: Your not afraid to being challenged in 1on1 situations. Your motivated and mb even talented
So far - your weakness: You suffer Dunning Kruger. Find out how much you dont know - then ask specifically for advice.
I dont know if this made any sense. I just poured my heart out.
Learn how to lasthit better and you will raise about 1000 mmr.
All the other stuff will come in time.
Kek! blog.dota2.com/2013/12/matchmaking/
Stats based on 2013 with a quarter of the player base Dota2 currently has. The MMR spread has increased.
Are you saying that 4K accounts are that hard to achieve the only 1% are able to do it?
As far as I remember 4.2k had 99% quantile, and I think it is possible that only about 1% of players can consistently have higher rating without re-calibrating, just by playing enough matches on the same acc (in order to exclude random errors).
@op, dont sacrifice potentially useful time for playing dota because you well regret it if your expectations dont come true
here's the thing, i can't "prove" that talent exists without significant data about genetic and physiological qualities of human beings, and i'm not a biologist so i'd have to do vast amounts of research that i'm not interested in/would take way too much time.
however, some basic logic + observation tells me it exists, otherwise people who spend thousands of hours on dota 2 (no lack of hard work/effort) would be 5k already. but they're not, some people like mason didn't even play dota 1 and got third place in the TI, while some ppl with the most games (7000+) on dotabuff are 4k. definitely not equal at all in terms of skill, due to unequal rates of return based on time spent
but you are correct, if people put in time to practice, they will improve...the only difference is how much potential skill that's unrealized. that's not something we can reliably measure, but suffice to say, if you believe you can get 6k, then good for you, and hopefully you reach it.
but not everyone is cut out for this game and once you accept everyone has their own limits, then you'll probably be more satisfied with what you already have
skill is a loaded term, but for the sake of the discussion, it means winning games whether you're playing on a professional team for money, or winning high level pubs consistently (obviously some people will pick broken heroes for the latter, but i won't dissect that)
this includes everything from your attitude, your mechanics, your ability to see/anticipate enemy actions, your knowledge about hero picks, your item choices, etc. separating attitude from skill is moot because you could be among the most highly skilled in the world but continue throwing games, and nobody would care. when ranked first came out i would feed courier/suicide into enemy team like 20 times just to piss off my team, and mm wouldn't make any distinction between me and any 4k shitter who tries in his matches and fails
"lol i'm a genius, i just refuse to work hard" = same results as some idiot who spends hours learning simple tasks. if u don't like my definition you can use merriam-webster and see for yourself why attitude and skill are intricately linked
so if bogi was 6k mechanically (sorry, but if anyone suggested this i would laugh, i've seen him play before and he's definitely not 6k even if u factor out attitude completely since he rarely uses creep aggro and misses a lot of last hits) and 4k in attitude...that would still lead to the same results
tl;dr if he hasn't improved his attitude after 2000+ ranked games then it's unlikely he will in the next 1000-2000 games, human personalities aren't perfectly malleable. i've been a rager in dota 1 since i started playing and i still rage, there's no getting around it no matter how hard i try and suppress my emotions.
kitrak a lot of your "counterarguments" are based on semantics/vague arguments ("mason approached the game differently?" what does that mean? how is that not a part of skill anyways?) and don't refute my contention that some people are simply better at certain tasks at others, given the same amount of time. none of the examples you brought up are inconsistent with my argument at all. if you ask 10 people with GOOD attitudes to study quantum mechanics (all good students and hard working people), and then you quiz each of their understanding 200 hours later, you think you'll get the same results from all of them? hardly, i knew many people who "worked hard" in school and they still sucked in certain subjects that i didn't need to lift a finger to get good grades in, if you apply that to clearly advanced topics in the sciences/maths you'll clearly see discrepancies in ability to absorb information.
note that it doesn't matter if these results are due to some people having better study habits (i.e. equivalent to the nuances you brought up about why some players are better at dota), better cognitive capabilities, or whatever, you end up with vastly different results that can't be fully explained by simply "some people work harder than others"
and that's perfectly fine, being good in certain tasks does not make you inferior or superior to anyone else, i have never once yet claimed being naturally better at dota (or anything) makes you a superior/more worthy human being, though to be fair, the way i talk to people in game, you would never think that LOL ;D
@hushhush "I am aware of them - but havent found a way to execute my plays better." I have exactly same thing, even tho, i feel i can't compare myself to you... I know my mistakes, i even feel it instantly - once i make one, but i can't stop making them. I understand what i had to do there, and what would've came out of it if i didn't go there etc. I see those mistakes when i make them, i see those mistakes in my replays, but i just keep making them!
Sometimes, i end up doing circles with my hero and thinking what happens if i go farm there, will i die or is it safe for me to do that or this, and so on. When i can't decide whether i should go somewhere, to help my teammates or not, i just go farm, because I am afraid to go die somewhere/feed. Basically, it's like that even in my real life, i'm not one of the smartest guys, and i can't come up with genius ideas instantly - like good players do.
Usually, there's like one day in the month, when i can win like all games of mine and i don't even think about decisions i make, it just happens somehow. And the only reason why i feel comfortable when playing tinker, is just that I don't waste time on deciding what should i do next or what i shouldn't do at all, i just see something, and do something and it's okay(even tho it can always be better). With other heroes, which i tryhard with even more (e.g. Shadow Fiend or Invoker) i can never make right move, i'll always make a mistake first, even if i'll understand it later or the same moment i make it, the next decision i'll make will probably be wrong again.
So, specifically I need advice for well known decision making, i guess so?
I read it all
@x6
most wasted 30 minutes of your life, I guess
I also read it all. Most of it just arguments. I think if you really want to get better and be Pro just save up some cash and get coached.
@denderis/OP
it is normal to make mistakes. That's how u learn. Dunning Kruger's wisdom says that u need to be aware of them in order to get rid of them. Eventually dota comes down to this: the less mistakes you make the better you get. You dont need genius ideas in order to get good at dota - you need to learn whats known already + execute it. Once you mastered this you might find out something genius. But that is a general rule in life - learn the basics first. So watch a replay - find out what u did wrong. Last hitting? Find a guide. Warding? Find a guide. Countering a specific pick? Find a guide. You are overwhelmed by the mistakes you see? Pick one and find a guide. Then try again. Try again. Try again. This is training. Training takes time. Some people claim that it takes about 10,000 hours to become really good at anything. So how much time do u have on ur dota clock? 100 hours? 500 hours? 1000 hours? Not enough.
One thought on decision making:
Decisions are based on ur knowledge, feelings and on assumptions. Take this into account! If u have a bad day, u will suddenly make decisions u know are wrong! I talked about basic knowledge in the first paragraph (tl;dr lol), but once u have enough knowledge - u need assumptions/anticipation to be right. For example in a teamfight: 5v5? how many HP vs HP? How much dmg vs dmg? Did u take towers/creeps into acc? How much mana vs mana? XP vs XP? Gold vs gold? these questions lead to the anticipated answer: "go or back". That's having a sense or a feeling for the game and making right decisions.
but tbh, i dont think that is the greatest problem. You need to get ahead as fast as possible as mid laner - so i guess first of all u should work on ur farm-efficiency and skills in laning phase. Then seize opportunities asap and not be lazy. If you are ahead, its ez.