Yeah as Puppey says..."Really, there is no meta. There is just the heroes people tend to play."
Brood does not need allies built around her....she requires you to counterpick specifically against her or get run over. That is why Brood was banned when pros happened to be picking her...because she forces the other team into a handful of predictable picks, forces them into bad lanes, and sets up whatever you want to do with the other lanes because anything will work with extra heroes always trying to stop spiders.
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But as you say, in pubs against bad brood players (all anyone ever encounters) plenty of aoe heroes are excellent against brood.
singsing solo offlane brood vod havent seen a decent brood in dota 2 til this...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSTgBCcaBrg dno bout the opponents but still its brood i cant do shit with this hero
do u play this hero? would u go for same skill build? max 1 and 2 first? i have feint memories of dota 1 brood getting soul ring and just winning although minimal wards and no dust back then and it looks like groupings deselect when u spawn more spiders not 100%
I don't play Brood much. It's fun, but I suck at micro so I lose.
You should get web level 1, max Spawn over web...1 point in incapacitating bite is really good in some situations. My games tend to look like this video of SingSings at first, but when I start winning and everyone comes to stop me...then I fail because I can't micro well enough and my spiders die. I don't see ganks coming very well as brood because it takes to much concentration for me to use more than one unit and see the map. You can see, SingSing also pays almost no attention to the map at all because he is too busy using spiders...it divides his attention. But the best Broods can use the spiders and see the map and lasthit all at the same time.
its true that brood has a very high skillcap however the one-dimensionalness of the hero being that its only good at laning and split pushing makes it fall behind stuff like furion and naga
Good point murs. I think that's why pro teams have been picking NP a lot lately. He can adjust to more situations.
Also I forgot that game was restricted, most people can't see it.
Try this one instead
http://dotabuff.com/matches/273909307 <---Brood mother who can do this are so rare, when someone does, their team assumes it must be feeding...they can't imagine brood is really this strong if they have not faced it themselves.
Or pretty much any Murs Brood game would also be a good example of expert spiders. I think Brood would still work well in pro games if it were picked last...people would be banning ds, wr, np...etc trying to ban your offlane and probably have things like bane or cm in support, then Wham you hit them with an offlane brood that can't be stopped. If you did that it would force a Brood ban in future games...but that opens up other things.
yeah tru np taking over that role hard now that dota 2 shadowblade is strong if u had the time relentless could u take a look at some of my games to give some criticism? would love another person to tell me where i can improve im not the best but i want to learn as much as i can
As gucci pointed out, sentries can really hurt the brood's lane phase.
I wanna know what to do in that situation, other than moving to another lane.
What exactly do you do, when the other team buys sentries, then you get ur support to buy sentries and courier it over, then what if they de-ward you again? Meanwhile u are getting zoned while ur sentries arrive. (offlane solo) Also gotta point out, ur courier wont be upgraded yet.
Broods main advantage is spiderlings...web is best used for the regen and the vision it gives you. The invis is nice, but not that important.
When you deward sentries you should do it with spiderlings. First, be paying attention so you see where they place it. 2nd, don't be cheap, get sentries to deward. 3rd, know the range of sentry ward vision so you can place your sentry far from theirs but close enough to see it. 4th do it when the lane is pushed back so their supports cannot stand close to the sentry. 5th send in spider close to the ward, place your sentry and bam...easy it dies in less than 1 second, faster than their supports can even do one attack on your ward.
All of this depends on you actually getting lasthits...this should be extremely easy with spawn spiderlings and then using spiders to lasthit. Of course that takes skill, but as far as the actually capabilities of the heroes there is almost nothing that can out-last hit a broodmother.
You should not be getting zoned while you are visible unless you are against a tri-lane. Brood will win the harassing battle against any single support very easily because of web move speed and tons of free regen. The support can't trade harass with you. You will regen in web, they will have to spend money...money they certainly do not have if they are buying sentries.
Level 1 web regen is +2, that's the equivalent of a RoR, a 350 gold regen item. Enemy supports cannot trade harass. If you make it to level 5 and have your soul ring done you are at +9 hp/sec regen. Meanwhile enemy supports are quite likely to have no regen at all. If you have a poor man's like the example expert brood does (see above posts) a support can hit you for about 30 dmg per attack...at level 5 with soul ring you regen that in 3 seconds. Even standing still just taking it a typical range support would have to hit you continuously for over a full minute to kill you.
Harassing a brood mother is simply not effective. If you are against a brood, don't try to harass them. Either go for the kill, or don't bother.
Suppose you are even in some horrible lane that can magic harass you forever like CM+KotL. And CM hits you with a level 4 Nova every cd. Thats 250 magic dmg every 15 seconds...total real dps is 12.5...and web plus soul ring heals for 11 hp/s so at this rate you would not gain many hp or lose them....but you couldn't use the soul ring active much.
How the fuck this thread turned out to be a thread about Brood? She is one of the best heroes in the game if played well. Can crush even 1v3 lanes. But not getting picked, why? Because no one can play her for shit. Same goes for Invoker. Was picked only once in TI3. Still won.
Ur posts are always awesome. I dont play brood, but just wanted to know what a good brood would do. Cuz personally I dont find him scary at all, and get wards straight away. Haven't faced a good brood (not in dota2) for a long time tho.
I don't agree. Brood is a bad hero. Murs has a high winrate because he's very good with the hero and a very good player as well, and a pub player after all. Brood doesn't stand a chance against competitive line-ups because she doesn't have teamfight potential and if she doesn't push as hell in the early-mid she's gonna get useless. It's so easy to kill her with detection and so easy to counter spiderlings with AoE, as long as you have a well coordenated team.
relentless, brood is normally played as a solo offlane and against a tri lane with sentries, brood isnt getting anything early game.
if u play brood as a solo game lane against other solos say lone druid, furion, batrider, darkseer, weaver, etc brood will either allow them to free farm (ld, furion, weaver) and those heroes have greater late game potential or get dominated (batrider, darkseer). sure u can deward with spiderling, but by the time u place your sentry down, they would kill ur sentry before u get theirs. even if we assume no sentry, brood would never win against those heroes. the only offlane i see brood doing well against is windrunner.
also there is just too many counters to brood: batrider, darkseer, sandking, tinker, NP, kotl, ES, etc
throw in the fact that there is no reliable escape ability against ganks except for bkb tp, and the potential of letting the enemy team kill ur spiderlings for a lot of gold, brood is really really situational.
in fact, i would even call brood the worst hero in the game at this moment, and yes, even worst than meepo, omni, witchdoctor, skeleton king, and medusa.
Gucci you are right about what pub players can do with those heroes and what will likely happen in a pub game. Brood is probably the worst pub hero right now. It is way to hard to play... so far beyond the abilities of ordinary players it even has a terrible record in Diamond 41% win.
But Brood does not have a terrible record in pro games, it is simply out of style. Brood has 50% pro winrate. When teams know the enemy has a spider player, Brood is banned. Brood was banned 1098 times in the last 2 years of pro games. You don't ban heroes you can easily defeat with a sentry ward. The fact is Pro teams fear Brood, most lineups cannot deal with the spiders.
You really don't understand the function of a solo offlaner. Do you think Admiral Bulldog "got much" with his offlane NP against tri-lanes at TI3? No his cs at 3 min was nearly zero...some games literally zero...he had almost no xp also...so why did Alliance keep putting him there instead of starting in the jungle? Why did that start consistently...and I mean 100% beat the best teams in the world? It is because his presence there was a problem. Supports could not control equilibrium, could not stack the pulls, could not get the gold and xp they required to function....why didn't they leave then? Because their carry could not take NP solo, he could get no cs or die trying to get cs. If you think the offlaner being "kept down" is bad you don't understand the objective....which is to use up a lot of enemy resources fighting a hero that needs almost nothing to function.
Brood does not have to face a tri-lane solo and get lots of cs or kills or take the tower...he just has to be there threatening to do it. Forcing supports to spend time standing near the lane instead of stacking and pulling or ganking other lanes. Forcing supports to buy truesight they cannot afford. Spending gold on sentries is extremely expensive for a support player early. I know, I have played over 3k games of hard support. If you are using 3 heroes to stop only 1 in a pro-game you will certainly lose the other two lanes. And there are very few two hero combinations that can take on a Broodmother...hence spiders are banned. Brood was banned in pro games 2.65X for every time picked. Considering ban/pick ratio over the last 2 years. There is only 1 hero currently regarded by the pros are more unstoppable in than Broodmother...that hero is Wisp 4.39. Batrider is about equal to Brood at 2.56. Most heroes are picked more than banned, only the most difficult to play against have ratios near 1.5. Those are Antimage 1.49, Brewmaster 1.53, Enchantress 1.51, Undying 2.06....before the nerf to Lycan's insanely strong jungle powers his ban/pick ratio was 6.13...since the nerf he dropped to 0.45 for this year.
Brood is banned far more than picked because it is too hard to defeat a pro spider. All those heroes you imagine are counters are merely counters in pubs because the brood player fails at micro. Wisp pub winrate is 42.74% this month...is wisp a sucky weak hero? No wisp is the hero that won every game 5-0 at TI3 Grand Finals. But wisp has an extremely high skill cap, only the very best players can use it correctly.
brood was a viable pick a year ago before a lot of these other heroes are buffed and before the hero pool expanded. you can even go back 7 years and say zeus is a top tier pick, i dont think it is an accurate way to portray the hero because almost every patch changes the game one way or another. the current patch does not favor brood at all because it rewards ganks and/or a lot of kills whereas if u play brood, it would be 4 vs 5 all game in team fights.
the difference between NP and LD on the offlane is because u really do need 2-3 to stop him whereas like i said earlier, a simple sentry can stop a brood in most cases. the spiderling harass is not nearly effective as say furion's tree army because a stout shield cancels out all harass from spiderlings. sure brood can spam his nuke, but an AM starting with a stout shield and pulled a few regen can even solo a brood up to the point where he gets a ring of health and then the rest is history. and we are talking about AM here, one of the worst carry laning hero..
if u have the data, i would be interested to know the winrate and pick/ban amount of brood the past 6 months in pro games
It is down recently, but still 1.38. I think this is because Brood has become unfashionable, few games makes for a bad sample. You really do need 3 heroes to stop Brood...you just are unaware of that fact because you have never seen an expert Broodmother or maybe you did years ago and imagine that now its all fixed?
44 bans 32 picks. But Brood has not been nerfed since 6.75b, October 2012 (increase to spiderling bounty) in fact Brood received a buff to incapacitating bite at the same time and again in 6.78 June 2013. Spiders are worth more to kill now than when Brood was dominating the pro scene, but Brood is actually stronger as a hero now than then. Incapatitating bite is up to 60% miss, was only 25% then.
AM cannot solo Brood that's absurd. You keep saying things that prove you have no idea how impossible it is to beat spider micro.
Pro level AM would feed like crazy solo against pro level Brood. He would be able to do nothing but hide and lose the tower. AM would lose to brood trying to solo lane even if he magically had a 10 min Bfury...brood can still easily kill him.
Zues was never a top tier pick in dota 2. I have no stats from 7 years ago. And besides that a top tier pick is nothing like a top tier ban. You pick heroes you can use. You ban heroes when you cannot think of any way to beat them.
Stout Shield does not block all dmg from spiders...you really don't know what you are talking about at all. Have you played against a broodmother who dives the tower to kill with you when you are full health and switches agro to the spiders while she attacks you? Have you been trapped by spiders and so you can't move at all every time you walk near the creeps? If you have not then you really don't understand the power of brood mother. Treant's can't do that.
Try to understand how long Brood can soak up tower dmg compared to NP. In one creep wave level 7 NP can summon 4 treants with 550 hp...that will block tower hits for at most 20 seconds. You know that NP can take towers fairly easily like this...but in one creep wave lvl 7 Broodmother can produce 5575 hp of spiders...the tower can only do about 3600 dmg before the next wave arrives. Broodmother can fight under your tower indefinitely...its like your tower does not exist. Your tower is not safe.
You cannot 1v1 brood. The tower does not help you hit her. Your creeps do not target her, but her creeps will change agro to hit you. Even one point in incapacitating bite and you have 30% miss (free blfy level) You will be fighting in web, brood has more free regen than vanguard, more ms without boots than you do with them, Brood has a 10 sec cd 300 dmg nuke and the mana to spam it...you will lose, it will not be close... Anti-mage will do nothing but feed if he tries to stay in that lane...most dual lanes can do nothing but feed a solo brood.
You have not seen this ever. Not even one time. If you had you would agree with me instead of proposing silly weak counters. Brood is stronger now than when dominate in pro games a year ago. Pro's do not have the absolute best possible strategies. They only have what they happen to have practiced. They don't have to get anywhere near perfect...they just have to be better than their opponents. Even pros rarely play any of the heroes close to their full potential because they don't have time to practice them all enough. Their attention is divided by over 100 heroes...most only work on 3 to 5 heroes at a time.
Of course pros could specialize and get close to perfect like Admiral Bulldog on Lone Druid...but then that hero will just be banned and there is not time to learn more than a few heroes that well.
Brood is just for getting down enemy's base, making them tp back to defend their towers. They should be afraid of pushing 'cause there's a brood in lane. Otherwise, this hero sucks donkey balls in teamfight concerns.
Brood is good at pushing but not at split-pushing because of his web. and he doesn't really contribute that much in a team-fight. his bite gets countered by BKB and MKB. 300 dmg single-target nuke with 10 second CD. Yes he can catch lone heroes and bite them till death ( orchid here). but who will go into the lane with webs alone. his ulti is quite good, but not really. 100 dmg and 80% lifesteal. makes him quite durable, but the damage still is not enough.
well relentless, we're talking about laning stage here. any brood that doesnt get web at lvl 1 is pretty bad and it really takes brood to be lvl 3 before she can do ANY harass, and level 5 before she can snowball the lane. what i was pointing out is she is terrible during the laning stage. i know her power mid game and she can take on anybody midgame, and she does require 1-2 midgame. but laning stage? walking melee creep that can hide in her web if in trouble (assuming no sentries).
a dual lane can 100% stop brood with a sentry and for a solo like AM pulled some regen, etc can deal with brood 1v1 up until brood is at least level 3. by then, AM would have a ring of health and solid farm, the supports would have done wonders around the map or gotten a lot of levels if pulling creep, and brood is not that scary.
if a brood drives the tower with 20 spiderling, couple aoe stun/nuke and that is 20x15=300 free gold. 300 free gold, think about that value. that is equivalent of a bear kill from syllabear, a tower last hit, a hero kill, killing all 3 of visage's bird. just think how easy this is compared to the others. whereas if NP tries to push ur tower, he feeds 5 treant and that is 15x5=75 gold.
also let's be serious here, any pro broodmother would not be harassing with their spiderlings, they would send it into the jungle to farm. maybe im a noob, but i have never seen a pro brood try to surround the other player with spiders to kill him (is that even doable against other pros?). the only harass is the nuke, which is fairly decent at high lvls, but during the laning phase (between lvls 1-6), he really doesnt put pressure to the enemy.
im still waiting for the winrate of brood in pro games the pas 6 months. if it is above 50% i would be VERY surprised.
also to make things clear, i highly respect u relentless and do take all your comment to heart, i just write my post from what ive seen in pro games (i watch a lot) and this is nothing against u.
so...you really think "brood is terrible during the laning stage". Brood is slightly below 50% win rate in pro games for the last 5 months but that is only because she is not picked unless a weak team is trying to get a big upset over a strong team. Win/loss for that period is 13-15.
Nothing you have written here, about harassing with a sentry ward, about what items brood requires, about AM soloing Brood, about the supposed ease of killing spiders, or the impossibility of surrounds...none of that makes any sense.
You say your self you have not seen a pro brood do a surround...this means you have not seen a pro brood period. If they can't do a surround, then they are just not very good at the hero. Spiderling base ms is 350, higher than all heroes. In lvl 1 web it goes up to 419. Only a blink hero can escape a spider surround and if they do not blink, they will die...then they tower hug until blink is off cd only to get 1 more lasthit and blink out again to avoid death. If you do not see this pattern in an AM vs brood 1v1 you are not watching pro players. For non-blink heroes avoiding a spider surround is mechanically impossible. Their ms is too slow. 1 attack by a spiderling on a 300 ms hero and they are going 255 ms...its really not even close. The only reason you have not seen it is...you have not watched brood pro players. Spiderling ms is 472 when web is maxed.
show me a clip where a pro player get surrounded by a pro brood. never seen it happen. if ur comparing a pro brood vs a regular player, sure it can happen, but we're talking about a pro game here. if u dont have any clip/replay (i even have wc3 installed if u want to bring an old replay)/matchid, then i assume u never saw it either.
u still havent answered the weakness of brood when he is level 1-4. like how easy it is to zone brood out of exp range with a sentry and the fact that brood cant jungle like most offlane heroes at levels 1-4.
the fact that brood have under 50% winrate in pro games the last 6 months answers everything. the fact that teams use it as a surprise pick explains my point of brood being very very situational as noted on above posts.
just saying "none of that make any sense" isnt very like u relentless, i expected better arguments from you bro. but i still respect u.
No I have answered it, over and over...you just don't want to see it. Brood is one of the strongest heroes in the entire game at early levels...and can jungle from level 2. You don't understand the hero at all. In fact brood is the only offlane hero besides DS that can jungle and lane at the same time. Admiral Bulldogs NP can't even do that, but brood can.
Its understandable that you have not seen it if you are not truly a pro dota fnatic because brood is in less than 1% of games this year. But as I said...its just fashion. Perhaps you have also not seen surrounds because pros will not lane a non-blink hero against brood...knowing it is certain death. Beyond that, casters tend not to watch Brood. And she kills people so fast they usually miss it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZNCjRcSOqU Iccup vs EG at Corsair last month
Brood dominates this game...solo kill on SK with a surround at 13 minutes even though SK is a blink hero...but you can't see it without the in game ticket because it was too fast and Sheever missed it. If you do watch in game, you will see the constant repositioning SK has to do to avoid getting surrounded and dieing throughout early game.
EG is forced to lane Sand King the absolute strongest anti-brood hero against Brood bot, so they have a weak aggressive tri-lane top with spectre instead of safelane farm...and they lose it while spectre gets very little farm. EG cannot win this bad laning setup...forced by the brood pick. So SK goes top to help and they immediately lose 2 towers in 1 creep wave.
At 18 min 3 man gank on Brood, the gankers lose, Brood lives and the rax is taken at the same time.
At 19 min Brood kills SK with a surround again, again it is too fast and Sheever missed it.
At 23 min Spectre just barely survives a surround with phase and spectral dagger into trees....again Sheever missed it
I thought timbersaw is a pretty good counter against brood. I mean even if brood dives u at tower, u damage brood and clear her spiderlings so fast it's not funny. Agreed?
Since you're good at theorycrafting and stuffs. Care to give an opinion on two about my profile regarding brackets or whatnot? I don't seem to grasp the exact idea(Ie, belonging into higher tier and stuffs)
Timbersaw is very good against brood if he is ahead. But he is not going to win without help at the start.
TLDR? timbersaw is a good frontline component of a tri-lane to shut brood down. He can escape if he needs to and with help and dust, he can turn and kill brood.
Timbersaw has a 4 sec cd escape from surrounds so he can stay in the lane. Once leveled up reactive armor is great against spiders. If you have tons of mana and are level 6 or higher, he can clear spiders out easily...but you have to get to that point first...and before Brood completes Orchid. Once Brood has Orchid, she can again kill a timbersaw solo very easily. A good Brood should get Orchid in 12-15 minutes. Once that happens no single hero can safely go to her lane.
Timbersaw also faces another problem...he needs trees. Without trees he has no escape and webs destroy all the trees. If there are no trees nearby, he also cannot do enough aoe dmg to kill spiders because he needs to timberchain and whirling death to do it. Once he reaches level 6 and has tons of mana...then he is good shape against brood until she gets Orchid. But in a real game, 1 v 1 pro Brood is going to kill timbersaw or drive him out of the lane and take the tower before he gets to level 6.
Some might think that reactive armor will keep timbersaw up. It does help with harass, but Brood has another way to kill him. Even if you do have a timber chain to escape you can't get low. This is the same problem as laning against a zues or a tinker, someone with extremely powerful, low cd nukes and the mana to use them.
If you start with 600 hp and take 1 300 magic dmg nuke...well now you are at 375. A few seconds later you take another round and you are at 150...ok use a salve, back up to 550. Still during the same creep wave you get hit again...now you are at 325 and out of regen so you will die if you stay in the lane. Most heroes just don't have the mana at early levels to do this. If someone comes out a spams nuke, they run out before they can remove your regen and kill you. But Brood with soul ring in web...can hit you every 10 sec with another high dmg nuke and does not run out of mana. Other heroes could try the same trick with soul ring...but they don't get a free 8 hp/sec heal from web so they run out of hp spamming soul ring. Soul Ring+ level 4 web is +11hp/sec, using soul ring every cd costs 5hp/sec. Basically at level 3-4 (level 2 web) you can spam forever, higher levels let you use soul every cd and still heal too.
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Shikayne`none of your teams have an active rating but they consistently are matched against 4k rated teams. You are probably at the lower end of Diamond. Top 1%-2% of players.
hey relentless, i've been lurkin and i find you have an incredible ability for research and detailed explanation. if you're bored, can you check out one of my last cm games? I'm tryin to improve and I basically hit a wall. If you're too busy its cool :)
I don't understand how sk is better than timber in terms of countering brood. Timber offlane is so good. He's most likely not going to lane agaisnt brood in the laning stage. Sk is no where good as timber in offlaning. Timber will definitely reach level 6 much faster than sk offlane. Once timber reaches lvl6/7 say in average 6mins.. He can go to safe lane and defend against brood pushes relatively early. Do u know that timbers ultimate deal 200pure dmg with only 75 mana. Timber is also specialise in burst dmg. Much more than brood. Before brood can nuke ur ass down, timber has prob already nuke ur hp to an even lower percentage. Of course brood can destroy trees like u said. But let's be realistic. There is so many trees to destroy in lane that u can't destroy em all. Any decent timber will be able to find his trees and create an opportunity to do whatever he do best. Yes when brood gets orchid, then timber gets shut down. But how many brood gets orchid before timber reaches level 7/8?
I agree that you understand the intricacies of brood way more than I do, but implying that timber is not stronger than brood by a mile is :0 some heroes in dota do better than others. It's just the way it is :o
relentless is talking aobut the early laning stage (where brood would shit on timber if they 1v1). however yes, u could technically draft a lineup that switches lanes at a certain stage, i.e. timber rotates after he's 6
and btw, to keep the thread on track. I do remember burning on weaver smacking some pro brood in the face (competitive match) he got pooled a set of sentries and thats it
brood shouldn't be able to kill weaver, just harass. and if weaver makes 7, i'm pretty sure he has kill potential on brood with vision... what is the regen you need to survive in lane vs. a brood? tranquils? or tranq + roh?
It looks like you followed the pattern of the teams that consistently lost at TI3. You built your draft around OD and the fact is OD is very weak. OD will out cs nearly anyone mid, but that is just not very important to winning the game.
The solo mid hero needs to be a high impact, ganking machine who can turn a teamtfght around in seconds when they cast their spells.
OD has the potential to badly fill several roles badly.
[1] a solo mid who has no way to control the runes but a lucky guess
[2] a carry who does no dps to magic immune heroes
[3] a support (getting mech, fstaff) who has only one defensive disruption skill and no other utility
[4] an initiator that give the enemy 4 seconds to react, a free escape if they have a blink dagger...and makes it hard to chain disables
Meanwhile OD can't push or counterpush and requires lots of farm before being powerful. OD is just a weak pick and you are much better off letting the other team have it...suffer your low cs on your solo mid. OD got 28 denies against Kunka...doesn't look like it hurt him much does it? Let OD go, it lost 70% of games at TI3 for a reason.
Hmm, burning on weaver pooled. That is interesting. Do you know which game? I would like to see how he avoided losing the tower. Weaver can escape very easily, and Burning is so good he may have been able to win a sentry ward battle with pooling. Still weaver is very easily killed by nuke spam and not good at defending the tower from spiders.
What you really need to survive against brood and cs is a real escape (ie low cd blink type skill)) and enough regen to survive magic dmg harrass of 30 dps. So Antimage with max spell shield and vanguard + tranquils could do it.
If weaver was using his ult to regen nuke dmg...idk. I think weaver should still die without mistakes by brood.
OD does win mid against a lot of heroes but I feel that is all he does as at level 6 you have QOP, Puck, Storm, Skywrath all out and about ganking, grabbing runes etc. whereas at 6 OD just has to stay mid and get at least boots and force. Better team players should however swing out and using the imprison, catch someone in a lane out of position so the team can at least pick up a couple kills before he goes back to lane farming.
I think he is a good hero but he is the teams worst enemy till he gets farmed also cause of the INT steal no one goes bottle on him which means you are giving your counterpart mid the ability to pick up runes and gank much sooner than you are able to.
Havoc you are correct that people usually don't get bottle on OD to take runes. But the reason they don't is that you have to bottle crow it or get lucky.
OD does not have a way to flash farm the wave and push it out forcing the opposing mid to save the tower. This is why he cannot control the runes and why getting bottle is ineffective. People don't play OD like other mid solo heroes because he just can't do it no matter how skilled the player is.
Beesa suggested to me another possible way to play OD, basically you treat him like Zues. You blink instead of Fstaff and play him as a ganking semi-carry. You get hex instead of bkb. You imprison the hero with the disable, and burst down the other one. You rely on skill and quickness and lightening fast attacks that remove 1 hero from the fight instantly. Then you have a real hard carry backing you up for teamfights late game. No one has played this kind of solo mid hero for a long time in pro games. Even QoP was dropped at TI3...although SF is coming back...but everyone is going shadowblade over blinks now. I have not seen a pro team run a "kill them in 1 second with no disable" plan for a while.
There are all kinds of interesting combos that could be great with just raw nuke power. Zues+NP+Pugna+Storm+Spectre...there is a possibility for instantly killing anyone well into mid-game and the super global ult combo stays amazing however long the game goes.
Laning wise you stop worrying about the fact that your heroes lose a 10 second fight because they win a 5 second fight.
Can you please elaborate more on "You are probably at the lower end of Diamond. Top 1%-2% of players." I don't really get what Diamond is. Top 1%-2% of players? No idea what it meant. Lol. Still a below average player you meant?
That is fine if your objective is to get cs. What I am saying is a solo mid hero must accomplish more than cs. Just getting cs is a loss, unless you are truly a hard carry.
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Dotabuff set up several levels for DBR (dotabuff rating), before it was disabled by Valve. The top level was called Diamond. You are probably just above the level required to get into Diamond.
In term of valves MMR (matchmaking rating) you are probably near 4,000. 91% of rated teams are below 4k. 97% of all teams are below 4k...and 98% of dota players are not on a team at all.
So you are probably rated higher than nearly all dota players, higher than 90% of people who are serious enough to play on a rated team.
Well if Diamond is top 1% and there are 6.4 Million dota players... then the top 64,000 players are Diamond. If half of them are on the top teams that's the top 6,400 teams and that puts Diamond team rating at about 3729 tMMR.
Its just an estimate since DBR has not updated in 8 months now...but 4k is much more likely Diamond than Platinum.
If you assumed all the best players were on the best teams Diamond tMMR would be 3345...but that's the trouble with so much guessing. The error margin is large.
The top 1% of all teams is currently at 4357 and the top 1% of rated teams is at 4672...which line do you want to assign to the 8 month old rating system?
Yeah as Puppey says..."Really, there is no meta. There is just the heroes people tend to play."
Brood does not need allies built around her....she requires you to counterpick specifically against her or get run over. That is why Brood was banned when pros happened to be picking her...because she forces the other team into a handful of predictable picks, forces them into bad lanes, and sets up whatever you want to do with the other lanes because anything will work with extra heroes always trying to stop spiders.
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But as you say, in pubs against bad brood players (all anyone ever encounters) plenty of aoe heroes are excellent against brood.
singsing solo offlane brood vod havent seen a decent brood in dota 2 til this...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSTgBCcaBrg
dno bout the opponents but still its brood i cant do shit with this hero
Singsing clearly out of practice in this video. He does a couple good plays though...lol classic Singsing, wrong item buys too.
do u play this hero? would u go for same skill build? max 1 and 2 first? i have feint memories of dota 1 brood getting soul ring and just winning although minimal wards and no dust back then and it looks like groupings deselect when u spawn more spiders not 100%
I don't play Brood much. It's fun, but I suck at micro so I lose.
You should get web level 1, max Spawn over web...1 point in incapacitating bite is really good in some situations. My games tend to look like this video of SingSings at first, but when I start winning and everyone comes to stop me...then I fail because I can't micro well enough and my spiders die. I don't see ganks coming very well as brood because it takes to much concentration for me to use more than one unit and see the map. You can see, SingSing also pays almost no attention to the map at all because he is too busy using spiders...it divides his attention. But the best Broods can use the spiders and see the map and lasthit all at the same time.
Watch this expert brood game from brood perspective.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/278866171
very true points wouldnt have noticed otherwise cheers for the wisdom
its true that brood has a very high skillcap however the one-dimensionalness of the hero being that its only good at laning and split pushing makes it fall behind stuff like furion and naga
brood is extremely strong in pubs but lacklustre competitively unless ur plan is to never temafight
Good point murs. I think that's why pro teams have been picking NP a lot lately. He can adjust to more situations.
Also I forgot that game was restricted, most people can't see it.
Try this one instead
http://dotabuff.com/matches/273909307 <---Brood mother who can do this are so rare, when someone does, their team assumes it must be feeding...they can't imagine brood is really this strong if they have not faced it themselves.
Or pretty much any Murs Brood game would also be a good example of expert spiders. I think Brood would still work well in pro games if it were picked last...people would be banning ds, wr, np...etc trying to ban your offlane and probably have things like bane or cm in support, then Wham you hit them with an offlane brood that can't be stopped. If you did that it would force a Brood ban in future games...but that opens up other things.
yeah tru np taking over that role hard now that dota 2 shadowblade is strong if u had the time relentless could u take a look at some of my games to give some criticism? would love another person to tell me where i can improve im not the best but i want to learn as much as i can
brood is easily stopped in laning stage, 1 sentry and done.
I have never got into jungling with axe. He can help out so much early and mid game and build a early lead
As gucci pointed out, sentries can really hurt the brood's lane phase.
I wanna know what to do in that situation, other than moving to another lane.
What exactly do you do, when the other team buys sentries, then you get ur support to buy sentries and courier it over, then what if they de-ward you again? Meanwhile u are getting zoned while ur sentries arrive. (offlane solo) Also gotta point out, ur courier wont be upgraded yet.
Broods main advantage is spiderlings...web is best used for the regen and the vision it gives you. The invis is nice, but not that important.
When you deward sentries you should do it with spiderlings. First, be paying attention so you see where they place it. 2nd, don't be cheap, get sentries to deward. 3rd, know the range of sentry ward vision so you can place your sentry far from theirs but close enough to see it. 4th do it when the lane is pushed back so their supports cannot stand close to the sentry. 5th send in spider close to the ward, place your sentry and bam...easy it dies in less than 1 second, faster than their supports can even do one attack on your ward.
All of this depends on you actually getting lasthits...this should be extremely easy with spawn spiderlings and then using spiders to lasthit. Of course that takes skill, but as far as the actually capabilities of the heroes there is almost nothing that can out-last hit a broodmother.
You should not be getting zoned while you are visible unless you are against a tri-lane. Brood will win the harassing battle against any single support very easily because of web move speed and tons of free regen. The support can't trade harass with you. You will regen in web, they will have to spend money...money they certainly do not have if they are buying sentries.
Level 1 web regen is +2, that's the equivalent of a RoR, a 350 gold regen item. Enemy supports cannot trade harass. If you make it to level 5 and have your soul ring done you are at +9 hp/sec regen. Meanwhile enemy supports are quite likely to have no regen at all. If you have a poor man's like the example expert brood does (see above posts) a support can hit you for about 30 dmg per attack...at level 5 with soul ring you regen that in 3 seconds. Even standing still just taking it a typical range support would have to hit you continuously for over a full minute to kill you.
Harassing a brood mother is simply not effective. If you are against a brood, don't try to harass them. Either go for the kill, or don't bother.
Suppose you are even in some horrible lane that can magic harass you forever like CM+KotL. And CM hits you with a level 4 Nova every cd. Thats 250 magic dmg every 15 seconds...total real dps is 12.5...and web plus soul ring heals for 11 hp/s so at this rate you would not gain many hp or lose them....but you couldn't use the soul ring active much.
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If you want me to look at a game, ask for something specific, a specific game, a specific thing you want to know. etc...
How the fuck this thread turned out to be a thread about Brood? She is one of the best heroes in the game if played well. Can crush even 1v3 lanes. But not getting picked, why? Because no one can play her for shit. Same goes for Invoker. Was picked only once in TI3. Still won.
Ur posts are always awesome. I dont play brood, but just wanted to know what a good brood would do. Cuz personally I dont find him scary at all, and get wards straight away. Haven't faced a good brood (not in dota2) for a long time tho.
I don't agree. Brood is a bad hero. Murs has a high winrate because he's very good with the hero and a very good player as well, and a pub player after all. Brood doesn't stand a chance against competitive line-ups because she doesn't have teamfight potential and if she doesn't push as hell in the early-mid she's gonna get useless. It's so easy to kill her with detection and so easy to counter spiderlings with AoE, as long as you have a well coordenated team.
^Naw brah, u just havent seen good brood thats it.
relentless, brood is normally played as a solo offlane and against a tri lane with sentries, brood isnt getting anything early game.
if u play brood as a solo game lane against other solos say lone druid, furion, batrider, darkseer, weaver, etc brood will either allow them to free farm (ld, furion, weaver) and those heroes have greater late game potential or get dominated (batrider, darkseer). sure u can deward with spiderling, but by the time u place your sentry down, they would kill ur sentry before u get theirs. even if we assume no sentry, brood would never win against those heroes. the only offlane i see brood doing well against is windrunner.
also there is just too many counters to brood: batrider, darkseer, sandking, tinker, NP, kotl, ES, etc
throw in the fact that there is no reliable escape ability against ganks except for bkb tp, and the potential of letting the enemy team kill ur spiderlings for a lot of gold, brood is really really situational.
in fact, i would even call brood the worst hero in the game at this moment, and yes, even worst than meepo, omni, witchdoctor, skeleton king, and medusa.
Gucci you are right about what pub players can do with those heroes and what will likely happen in a pub game. Brood is probably the worst pub hero right now. It is way to hard to play... so far beyond the abilities of ordinary players it even has a terrible record in Diamond 41% win.
But Brood does not have a terrible record in pro games, it is simply out of style. Brood has 50% pro winrate. When teams know the enemy has a spider player, Brood is banned. Brood was banned 1098 times in the last 2 years of pro games. You don't ban heroes you can easily defeat with a sentry ward. The fact is Pro teams fear Brood, most lineups cannot deal with the spiders.
You really don't understand the function of a solo offlaner. Do you think Admiral Bulldog "got much" with his offlane NP against tri-lanes at TI3? No his cs at 3 min was nearly zero...some games literally zero...he had almost no xp also...so why did Alliance keep putting him there instead of starting in the jungle? Why did that start consistently...and I mean 100% beat the best teams in the world? It is because his presence there was a problem. Supports could not control equilibrium, could not stack the pulls, could not get the gold and xp they required to function....why didn't they leave then? Because their carry could not take NP solo, he could get no cs or die trying to get cs. If you think the offlaner being "kept down" is bad you don't understand the objective....which is to use up a lot of enemy resources fighting a hero that needs almost nothing to function.
Brood does not have to face a tri-lane solo and get lots of cs or kills or take the tower...he just has to be there threatening to do it. Forcing supports to spend time standing near the lane instead of stacking and pulling or ganking other lanes. Forcing supports to buy truesight they cannot afford. Spending gold on sentries is extremely expensive for a support player early. I know, I have played over 3k games of hard support. If you are using 3 heroes to stop only 1 in a pro-game you will certainly lose the other two lanes. And there are very few two hero combinations that can take on a Broodmother...hence spiders are banned. Brood was banned in pro games 2.65X for every time picked. Considering ban/pick ratio over the last 2 years. There is only 1 hero currently regarded by the pros are more unstoppable in than Broodmother...that hero is Wisp 4.39. Batrider is about equal to Brood at 2.56. Most heroes are picked more than banned, only the most difficult to play against have ratios near 1.5. Those are Antimage 1.49, Brewmaster 1.53, Enchantress 1.51, Undying 2.06....before the nerf to Lycan's insanely strong jungle powers his ban/pick ratio was 6.13...since the nerf he dropped to 0.45 for this year.
Brood is banned far more than picked because it is too hard to defeat a pro spider. All those heroes you imagine are counters are merely counters in pubs because the brood player fails at micro. Wisp pub winrate is 42.74% this month...is wisp a sucky weak hero? No wisp is the hero that won every game 5-0 at TI3 Grand Finals. But wisp has an extremely high skill cap, only the very best players can use it correctly.
brood was a viable pick a year ago before a lot of these other heroes are buffed and before the hero pool expanded. you can even go back 7 years and say zeus is a top tier pick, i dont think it is an accurate way to portray the hero because almost every patch changes the game one way or another. the current patch does not favor brood at all because it rewards ganks and/or a lot of kills whereas if u play brood, it would be 4 vs 5 all game in team fights.
the difference between NP and LD on the offlane is because u really do need 2-3 to stop him whereas like i said earlier, a simple sentry can stop a brood in most cases. the spiderling harass is not nearly effective as say furion's tree army because a stout shield cancels out all harass from spiderlings. sure brood can spam his nuke, but an AM starting with a stout shield and pulled a few regen can even solo a brood up to the point where he gets a ring of health and then the rest is history. and we are talking about AM here, one of the worst carry laning hero..
if u have the data, i would be interested to know the winrate and pick/ban amount of brood the past 6 months in pro games
It is down recently, but still 1.38. I think this is because Brood has become unfashionable, few games makes for a bad sample. You really do need 3 heroes to stop Brood...you just are unaware of that fact because you have never seen an expert Broodmother or maybe you did years ago and imagine that now its all fixed?
44 bans 32 picks. But Brood has not been nerfed since 6.75b, October 2012 (increase to spiderling bounty) in fact Brood received a buff to incapacitating bite at the same time and again in 6.78 June 2013. Spiders are worth more to kill now than when Brood was dominating the pro scene, but Brood is actually stronger as a hero now than then. Incapatitating bite is up to 60% miss, was only 25% then.
AM cannot solo Brood that's absurd. You keep saying things that prove you have no idea how impossible it is to beat spider micro.
Pro level AM would feed like crazy solo against pro level Brood. He would be able to do nothing but hide and lose the tower. AM would lose to brood trying to solo lane even if he magically had a 10 min Bfury...brood can still easily kill him.
Zues was never a top tier pick in dota 2. I have no stats from 7 years ago. And besides that a top tier pick is nothing like a top tier ban. You pick heroes you can use. You ban heroes when you cannot think of any way to beat them.
Stout Shield does not block all dmg from spiders...you really don't know what you are talking about at all. Have you played against a broodmother who dives the tower to kill with you when you are full health and switches agro to the spiders while she attacks you? Have you been trapped by spiders and so you can't move at all every time you walk near the creeps? If you have not then you really don't understand the power of brood mother. Treant's can't do that.
Try to understand how long Brood can soak up tower dmg compared to NP. In one creep wave level 7 NP can summon 4 treants with 550 hp...that will block tower hits for at most 20 seconds. You know that NP can take towers fairly easily like this...but in one creep wave lvl 7 Broodmother can produce 5575 hp of spiders...the tower can only do about 3600 dmg before the next wave arrives. Broodmother can fight under your tower indefinitely...its like your tower does not exist. Your tower is not safe.
You cannot 1v1 brood. The tower does not help you hit her. Your creeps do not target her, but her creeps will change agro to hit you. Even one point in incapacitating bite and you have 30% miss (free blfy level) You will be fighting in web, brood has more free regen than vanguard, more ms without boots than you do with them, Brood has a 10 sec cd 300 dmg nuke and the mana to spam it...you will lose, it will not be close... Anti-mage will do nothing but feed if he tries to stay in that lane...most dual lanes can do nothing but feed a solo brood.
You have not seen this ever. Not even one time. If you had you would agree with me instead of proposing silly weak counters. Brood is stronger now than when dominate in pro games a year ago. Pro's do not have the absolute best possible strategies. They only have what they happen to have practiced. They don't have to get anywhere near perfect...they just have to be better than their opponents. Even pros rarely play any of the heroes close to their full potential because they don't have time to practice them all enough. Their attention is divided by over 100 heroes...most only work on 3 to 5 heroes at a time.
Of course pros could specialize and get close to perfect like Admiral Bulldog on Lone Druid...but then that hero will just be banned and there is not time to learn more than a few heroes that well.
Brood is just for getting down enemy's base, making them tp back to defend their towers. They should be afraid of pushing 'cause there's a brood in lane. Otherwise, this hero sucks donkey balls in teamfight concerns.
Brood is good at pushing but not at split-pushing because of his web. and he doesn't really contribute that much in a team-fight. his bite gets countered by BKB and MKB. 300 dmg single-target nuke with 10 second CD. Yes he can catch lone heroes and bite them till death ( orchid here). but who will go into the lane with webs alone. his ulti is quite good, but not really. 100 dmg and 80% lifesteal. makes him quite durable, but the damage still is not enough.
well relentless, we're talking about laning stage here. any brood that doesnt get web at lvl 1 is pretty bad and it really takes brood to be lvl 3 before she can do ANY harass, and level 5 before she can snowball the lane. what i was pointing out is she is terrible during the laning stage. i know her power mid game and she can take on anybody midgame, and she does require 1-2 midgame. but laning stage? walking melee creep that can hide in her web if in trouble (assuming no sentries).
a dual lane can 100% stop brood with a sentry and for a solo like AM pulled some regen, etc can deal with brood 1v1 up until brood is at least level 3. by then, AM would have a ring of health and solid farm, the supports would have done wonders around the map or gotten a lot of levels if pulling creep, and brood is not that scary.
if a brood drives the tower with 20 spiderling, couple aoe stun/nuke and that is 20x15=300 free gold. 300 free gold, think about that value. that is equivalent of a bear kill from syllabear, a tower last hit, a hero kill, killing all 3 of visage's bird. just think how easy this is compared to the others. whereas if NP tries to push ur tower, he feeds 5 treant and that is 15x5=75 gold.
also let's be serious here, any pro broodmother would not be harassing with their spiderlings, they would send it into the jungle to farm. maybe im a noob, but i have never seen a pro brood try to surround the other player with spiders to kill him (is that even doable against other pros?). the only harass is the nuke, which is fairly decent at high lvls, but during the laning phase (between lvls 1-6), he really doesnt put pressure to the enemy.
im still waiting for the winrate of brood in pro games the pas 6 months. if it is above 50% i would be VERY surprised.
also to make things clear, i highly respect u relentless and do take all your comment to heart, i just write my post from what ive seen in pro games (i watch a lot) and this is nothing against u.
so...you really think "brood is terrible during the laning stage". Brood is slightly below 50% win rate in pro games for the last 5 months but that is only because she is not picked unless a weak team is trying to get a big upset over a strong team. Win/loss for that period is 13-15.
Nothing you have written here, about harassing with a sentry ward, about what items brood requires, about AM soloing Brood, about the supposed ease of killing spiders, or the impossibility of surrounds...none of that makes any sense.
You say your self you have not seen a pro brood do a surround...this means you have not seen a pro brood period. If they can't do a surround, then they are just not very good at the hero. Spiderling base ms is 350, higher than all heroes. In lvl 1 web it goes up to 419. Only a blink hero can escape a spider surround and if they do not blink, they will die...then they tower hug until blink is off cd only to get 1 more lasthit and blink out again to avoid death. If you do not see this pattern in an AM vs brood 1v1 you are not watching pro players. For non-blink heroes avoiding a spider surround is mechanically impossible. Their ms is too slow. 1 attack by a spiderling on a 300 ms hero and they are going 255 ms...its really not even close. The only reason you have not seen it is...you have not watched brood pro players. Spiderling ms is 472 when web is maxed.
show me a clip where a pro player get surrounded by a pro brood. never seen it happen. if ur comparing a pro brood vs a regular player, sure it can happen, but we're talking about a pro game here. if u dont have any clip/replay (i even have wc3 installed if u want to bring an old replay)/matchid, then i assume u never saw it either.
u still havent answered the weakness of brood when he is level 1-4. like how easy it is to zone brood out of exp range with a sentry and the fact that brood cant jungle like most offlane heroes at levels 1-4.
the fact that brood have under 50% winrate in pro games the last 6 months answers everything. the fact that teams use it as a surprise pick explains my point of brood being very very situational as noted on above posts.
just saying "none of that make any sense" isnt very like u relentless, i expected better arguments from you bro. but i still respect u.
No I have answered it, over and over...you just don't want to see it. Brood is one of the strongest heroes in the entire game at early levels...and can jungle from level 2. You don't understand the hero at all. In fact brood is the only offlane hero besides DS that can jungle and lane at the same time. Admiral Bulldogs NP can't even do that, but brood can.
Its understandable that you have not seen it if you are not truly a pro dota fnatic because brood is in less than 1% of games this year. But as I said...its just fashion. Perhaps you have also not seen surrounds because pros will not lane a non-blink hero against brood...knowing it is certain death. Beyond that, casters tend not to watch Brood. And she kills people so fast they usually miss it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZNCjRcSOqU
Iccup vs EG at Corsair last month
Brood dominates this game...solo kill on SK with a surround at 13 minutes even though SK is a blink hero...but you can't see it without the in game ticket because it was too fast and Sheever missed it. If you do watch in game, you will see the constant repositioning SK has to do to avoid getting surrounded and dieing throughout early game.
EG is forced to lane Sand King the absolute strongest anti-brood hero against Brood bot, so they have a weak aggressive tri-lane top with spectre instead of safelane farm...and they lose it while spectre gets very little farm. EG cannot win this bad laning setup...forced by the brood pick. So SK goes top to help and they immediately lose 2 towers in 1 creep wave.
At 18 min 3 man gank on Brood, the gankers lose, Brood lives and the rax is taken at the same time.
At 19 min Brood kills SK with a surround again, again it is too fast and Sheever missed it.
At 23 min Spectre just barely survives a surround with phase and spectral dagger into trees....again Sheever missed it
Mega creeps at 26 min gg
^Fucking Sheever
I thought timbersaw is a pretty good counter against brood. I mean even if brood dives u at tower, u damage brood and clear her spiderlings so fast it's not funny. Agreed?
Hi there Relentless,
Since you're good at theorycrafting and stuffs. Care to give an opinion on two about my profile regarding brackets or whatnot? I don't seem to grasp the exact idea(Ie, belonging into higher tier and stuffs)
In case you're wondering.
http://pubstats.me/102497215/
http://dotabuff.com/players/102497215
Regarding the myth behind K.D.A Ratio and stuffs. Which group do I belong to?
Thanx in advance and good day.
@TS : Sorry to hijack your thread.
Timbersaw is very good against brood if he is ahead. But he is not going to win without help at the start.
TLDR? timbersaw is a good frontline component of a tri-lane to shut brood down. He can escape if he needs to and with help and dust, he can turn and kill brood.
Timbersaw has a 4 sec cd escape from surrounds so he can stay in the lane. Once leveled up reactive armor is great against spiders. If you have tons of mana and are level 6 or higher, he can clear spiders out easily...but you have to get to that point first...and before Brood completes Orchid. Once Brood has Orchid, she can again kill a timbersaw solo very easily. A good Brood should get Orchid in 12-15 minutes. Once that happens no single hero can safely go to her lane.
Timbersaw also faces another problem...he needs trees. Without trees he has no escape and webs destroy all the trees. If there are no trees nearby, he also cannot do enough aoe dmg to kill spiders because he needs to timberchain and whirling death to do it. Once he reaches level 6 and has tons of mana...then he is good shape against brood until she gets Orchid. But in a real game, 1 v 1 pro Brood is going to kill timbersaw or drive him out of the lane and take the tower before he gets to level 6.
Some might think that reactive armor will keep timbersaw up. It does help with harass, but Brood has another way to kill him. Even if you do have a timber chain to escape you can't get low. This is the same problem as laning against a zues or a tinker, someone with extremely powerful, low cd nukes and the mana to use them.
If you start with 600 hp and take 1 300 magic dmg nuke...well now you are at 375. A few seconds later you take another round and you are at 150...ok use a salve, back up to 550. Still during the same creep wave you get hit again...now you are at 325 and out of regen so you will die if you stay in the lane. Most heroes just don't have the mana at early levels to do this. If someone comes out a spams nuke, they run out before they can remove your regen and kill you. But Brood with soul ring in web...can hit you every 10 sec with another high dmg nuke and does not run out of mana. Other heroes could try the same trick with soul ring...but they don't get a free 8 hp/sec heal from web so they run out of hp spamming soul ring. Soul Ring+ level 4 web is +11hp/sec, using soul ring every cd costs 5hp/sec. Basically at level 3-4 (level 2 web) you can spam forever, higher levels let you use soul every cd and still heal too.
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Shikayne`none of your teams have an active rating but they consistently are matched against 4k rated teams. You are probably at the lower end of Diamond. Top 1%-2% of players.
hey relentless, i've been lurkin and i find you have an incredible ability for research and detailed explanation. if you're bored, can you check out one of my last cm games? I'm tryin to improve and I basically hit a wall. If you're too busy its cool :)
http://dotabuff.com/matches/272126125
I don't understand how sk is better than timber in terms of countering brood. Timber offlane is so good. He's most likely not going to lane agaisnt brood in the laning stage. Sk is no where good as timber in offlaning. Timber will definitely reach level 6 much faster than sk offlane. Once timber reaches lvl6/7 say in average 6mins.. He can go to safe lane and defend against brood pushes relatively early. Do u know that timbers ultimate deal 200pure dmg with only 75 mana. Timber is also specialise in burst dmg. Much more than brood. Before brood can nuke ur ass down, timber has prob already nuke ur hp to an even lower percentage. Of course brood can destroy trees like u said. But let's be realistic. There is so many trees to destroy in lane that u can't destroy em all. Any decent timber will be able to find his trees and create an opportunity to do whatever he do best. Yes when brood gets orchid, then timber gets shut down. But how many brood gets orchid before timber reaches level 7/8?
I agree that you understand the intricacies of brood way more than I do, but implying that timber is not stronger than brood by a mile is :0 some heroes in dota do better than others. It's just the way it is :o
relentless is talking aobut the early laning stage (where brood would shit on timber if they 1v1). however yes, u could technically draft a lineup that switches lanes at a certain stage, i.e. timber rotates after he's 6
and btw, to keep the thread on track. I do remember burning on weaver smacking some pro brood in the face (competitive match) he got pooled a set of sentries and thats it
brood shouldn't be able to kill weaver, just harass. and if weaver makes 7, i'm pretty sure he has kill potential on brood with vision... what is the regen you need to survive in lane vs. a brood? tranquils? or tranq + roh?
It looks like you followed the pattern of the teams that consistently lost at TI3. You built your draft around OD and the fact is OD is very weak. OD will out cs nearly anyone mid, but that is just not very important to winning the game.
The solo mid hero needs to be a high impact, ganking machine who can turn a teamtfght around in seconds when they cast their spells.
OD has the potential to badly fill several roles badly.
[1] a solo mid who has no way to control the runes but a lucky guess
[2] a carry who does no dps to magic immune heroes
[3] a support (getting mech, fstaff) who has only one defensive disruption skill and no other utility
[4] an initiator that give the enemy 4 seconds to react, a free escape if they have a blink dagger...and makes it hard to chain disables
Meanwhile OD can't push or counterpush and requires lots of farm before being powerful. OD is just a weak pick and you are much better off letting the other team have it...suffer your low cs on your solo mid. OD got 28 denies against Kunka...doesn't look like it hurt him much does it? Let OD go, it lost 70% of games at TI3 for a reason.
Hmm, burning on weaver pooled. That is interesting. Do you know which game? I would like to see how he avoided losing the tower. Weaver can escape very easily, and Burning is so good he may have been able to win a sentry ward battle with pooling. Still weaver is very easily killed by nuke spam and not good at defending the tower from spiders.
What you really need to survive against brood and cs is a real escape (ie low cd blink type skill)) and enough regen to survive magic dmg harrass of 30 dps. So Antimage with max spell shield and vanguard + tranquils could do it.
If weaver was using his ult to regen nuke dmg...idk. I think weaver should still die without mistakes by brood.
OD does win mid against a lot of heroes but I feel that is all he does as at level 6 you have QOP, Puck, Storm, Skywrath all out and about ganking, grabbing runes etc. whereas at 6 OD just has to stay mid and get at least boots and force. Better team players should however swing out and using the imprison, catch someone in a lane out of position so the team can at least pick up a couple kills before he goes back to lane farming.
I think he is a good hero but he is the teams worst enemy till he gets farmed also cause of the INT steal no one goes bottle on him which means you are giving your counterpart mid the ability to pick up runes and gank much sooner than you are able to.
Havoc you are correct that people usually don't get bottle on OD to take runes. But the reason they don't is that you have to bottle crow it or get lucky.
OD does not have a way to flash farm the wave and push it out forcing the opposing mid to save the tower. This is why he cannot control the runes and why getting bottle is ineffective. People don't play OD like other mid solo heroes because he just can't do it no matter how skilled the player is.
Beesa suggested to me another possible way to play OD, basically you treat him like Zues. You blink instead of Fstaff and play him as a ganking semi-carry. You get hex instead of bkb. You imprison the hero with the disable, and burst down the other one. You rely on skill and quickness and lightening fast attacks that remove 1 hero from the fight instantly. Then you have a real hard carry backing you up for teamfights late game. No one has played this kind of solo mid hero for a long time in pro games. Even QoP was dropped at TI3...although SF is coming back...but everyone is going shadowblade over blinks now. I have not seen a pro team run a "kill them in 1 second with no disable" plan for a while.
There are all kinds of interesting combos that could be great with just raw nuke power. Zues+NP+Pugna+Storm+Spectre...there is a possibility for instantly killing anyone well into mid-game and the super global ult combo stays amazing however long the game goes.
Laning wise you stop worrying about the fact that your heroes lose a 10 second fight because they win a 5 second fight.
Well, I don't get bottle because you generally have enough mana gain from the aura and Tranquils help your HP regen needs as well.
Hi there again Relentless,
Can you please elaborate more on "You are probably at the lower end of Diamond. Top 1%-2% of players." I don't really get what Diamond is. Top 1%-2% of players? No idea what it meant. Lol. Still a below average player you meant?
Best Regards
That is fine if your objective is to get cs. What I am saying is a solo mid hero must accomplish more than cs. Just getting cs is a loss, unless you are truly a hard carry.
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Dotabuff set up several levels for DBR (dotabuff rating), before it was disabled by Valve. The top level was called Diamond. You are probably just above the level required to get into Diamond.
In term of valves MMR (matchmaking rating) you are probably near 4,000. 91% of rated teams are below 4k. 97% of all teams are below 4k...and 98% of dota players are not on a team at all.
So you are probably rated higher than nearly all dota players, higher than 90% of people who are serious enough to play on a rated team.
Hmmm....might try the blink thing and see how it goes.
hes platinum 100%
Well if Diamond is top 1% and there are 6.4 Million dota players... then the top 64,000 players are Diamond. If half of them are on the top teams that's the top 6,400 teams and that puts Diamond team rating at about 3729 tMMR.
Its just an estimate since DBR has not updated in 8 months now...but 4k is much more likely Diamond than Platinum.
If you assumed all the best players were on the best teams Diamond tMMR would be 3345...but that's the trouble with so much guessing. The error margin is large.
The top 1% of all teams is currently at 4357 and the top 1% of rated teams is at 4672...which line do you want to assign to the 8 month old rating system?
platinum
The nice thing about blink on OD over Fstaff is it gives him a real escape. He can use it like Puck, self imprison...4 sec no dmg. Blink away.
Thanks a bunch.
"OD will out cs nearly anyone mid, but that is just not very important to winning the game."
This was exactly what happened in my last Mirana game. He analed me mid...so hard I started bleeding.
But we still won the game and I still had decent items later on.
even jew agrees
Very high=high=normal