General Discussion

General DiscussionRigged ranked matchmaking

Rigged ranked matchmaking in General Discussion
Magic

    For people who are pushing rank. Im able to confirm that the ranked mm is rigged.
    It happened to me twice when i was going to rank up to ancient 5, i deranked until ancient 1 with games that are impossible to win, no matter how hard i try because the acc buyers are burden af. And just now when im going to rank up to divine 3. I got animals on my team for more than 10 games in a row and now im having ancient 5 mmr, almost ancient 4.
    Before you rank up, dota mm will give you acc buyers on your team. Until you derank :)

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    Bambooni

      im 3900 mmr dropped from 4990. DOnt u even dare.

      Magic

        Its almost the same as me. From ancient 5 to ancient 1 is from 4.5 to 3.8
        Now from 5k to 4.5
        Total -1200 mmr :)

        Bambooni

          50% forced winrate. Immortals are only the pro players thats it. Low immortal is trash as well. You either be scum the hole life or climb and have 50% forced winrate as well. The games are shit.

          GeloSapo

            A big problem with mmr today is that it doesnt reset. There are (LOTs of) reasons why literally ALL other competitive games makes seasonal resets. People stop playing, come back later (months or years), party with newer players, want to try new heroes, etc etc etc, and using 1 single 5 year old number to pair everyone that way is literally broken (more like Lazy because its Valve).

            Dota matchmaking system should've mirrored that from Starcraft 2: Seasonal resets for everyone and no questions asked, and you have your own unique Solo MMR, and specific party MMR, meaning your common group of friends will always share the same mmr when playing together, making the matchmaking waaaay easier (and actually fair) for group games. And the actual mmr number is not just a number in SC2: it actually is a crossed data analysis of a lot of player stats (apm, e-apm, gpm, xpm, kda, micro/macro, etc etc etc).

            Also, in the long run makes the game fresh. Every season reset (along with opportunity for new events and to deploy new patches), you'll get a small chaos for being paired with better or worse players, but after a few weeks, everyone is ranked at an updated bracket based on the cross-data analysis. And the players that stopped playing will stay uncalibrated until they come back, preventing old players from returning in high rank and ruining 15 games in a row.

            In the case of Pro players, they'll will always be at top league and playing with other pro friends, and they represent ~1% of the population, so it really doesnt affect them beyond the 10 first new season games.

            Also, it increases the mitigation of smurfs. MMR will reset eventually, so why even bother paying for an account when I have a fresh start every new season?

            The benefits list for seasonal resets is way longer than a simple post here could fit, and even though its never perfect, the benefits outweight the cons.

            But that would require Valve to hold on everything else and develop a good matchmaking system from scratch. They wont. They never will. We know by now that their development motto is: make it once in a way that we never need to deal with it ever again.

            The consequences of this "mmr inflation" can be seen in all brackets, with griefers, account buyers, old players returning after time off, high ranked partying with bad low ranks, literally stupid players, and the list can go on to all other types of players you guys find in your losing games.

            For all it's worth, Seasonal Ladder Reset is the way to fix Dota ranked matchmaking into a fairer and funnier experience (IMO at least).

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            Kowareta

              i personally think if you can win a 1v5 bot match with zero deaths you pass the knowledge and mental test of dota and you can ezly be 5k (dont use ping to control bots)
              maybe even 6k
              4k-5ks are literal bots

              Bambooni

                ive dropped so much mmr that my lowest from years now is 3830. You just can't lose 1000 mmr left and right like this. Thats why i always say from now on the 50% winrate is real. You win 2 games and lose 3. Or win 10 games and start winning losing like 3/5 games. If the match system was good enough you'll always be around +-500 or less points from your highest. The thing that i didnt make it past 5.1k mmr and constantly going 5000 and 4990 tells you the system is broken. I've never been above 5.2k mmr and the same shit goes up and down.

                Even in starcraft 2. Ive went from like bronze to diamonds in a couple of months or so. Increasing mmr there is a lot more common than in dota 2. If i start playing sc 2 more i will be better at this game than in dota 2.

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                Kowareta

                  sry my friend but when you came up with "etc etc" in your idea it just means you have no clue about what you talking about
                  it is what it is
                  i would just leave the game if my mmr sets to zero and im supposed to support heralds for 100 games to get back to where i am
                  i would do the same if my carry instead of hitting buildings afk farms whole game to get higher mmr cause of higher gpm

                  the game is fine and the only problem is punishment system. i got 4 notifs today about ppl who got punished by overwatch with my report and the only reason why its not 20 is the fact i could only report 4 the other day. what a joke

                  Bambooni

                    i got an overwatch case that the person got into lp and this was like 1 month ago or so. As for the sc 2 system you will still be placed at around your mmr and not in bronze.

                    Kowareta

                      isnt that just recalibration then?
                      i got -500 going 5-5 tnx to lord gaben

                      Kjdblin

                        I strongly believe the MM eventually just "forces" you to derank back to your original rank. 2nd time it does that for me on two accounts/

                        Hard grinding up to Ancient 1 from Archon 4 ; then just get trashed to Archon 4 again. Purely solo queuing.

                        CHAD

                          There is something that goes on Valve doesn't tell us....

                          Everytime I reach 3.5k, my next match places me with people with really low behaviour score or I get matched vs Tinker smurf that goes 25/0

                          I have 10k behaviour

                          average retarded fish

                            Agreed: forced loss streaks are a thing. But after them usually also comes win streaks! At least I have noticed that it is possible to climb in the long run, it is just hard to do fast because at some point you get 10 games with ruiners in a row.

                            average retarded fish

                              Sometimes you also get good teams when you have a bad game yourself! Like I got @Kowareta to carry me with his chen 5 a few days ago when I was tilted and playing like shit :)

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                              Slim Shady

                                ^ Mic is right, i just went on a lose streak 2 days ago, to the point where i even uninstalled dota, but i slept a night, came back with a new plan for the game and guess what? Won the last 8 games , you cant win em all. Always remember 51% winrate is good enough, you can lose almost half of your games and basically there is literally no problem.
                                I do believe how ever, the more succesfull you are, you get matched with other winstreak lads, because whenever i am winning hard i see the quality of my opponents increase every match, from match 1 they barely know how to lane, to game 5 where they stack camps, rotate, and have good lanes

                                Viktor;dNs

                                  Have you ever though, that you climbed to Ancient5 because of enemy acc buyers and not because you actually deserve that rank? If you trully deserve ancient5, you wills stay there.

                                  selen simp

                                    What y'all smoking, I need sum of that shit. Just b good

                                    Bambooni

                                      being good is not enough on a team game especially if your skill level is similar to those you play with.

                                      ,
                                      ,

                                        Good morning sunday morning, been saying this for years. Over the years I climbed to 4350 mmr 5 times between tilts and stayed there for months each time with both an overall and ranked winrate of 55% and 60-65% on my most played heroes, a couple of them even with 70%. Then all of a sudden I can't magically win in archon anymore, sometimes even vs guardians, winrate is now almost 50% at a lower rank, most played heroes' winrates dropped significantly, even by 10%. Afaik I didn't have any seizure that justifies this nor have I gotten worse at the game. Enthusiasm def went to shit over time and the playerbase might have naturally improved, but it's not enough to explain this big downtrend.
                                        Took months to reach 10k behavior score only to find the worst of the worst toxic subhumans to ever walk the planet, 2ks that completely unprovoked abuse mic and chat all game long and cry at every nonsense while having no game sense themselves. Both in my team and in the enemy team, every game, recently. 10k is the new 4k it seems, not sure if the plandemic made people lose that bit of sanity they had left.
                                        And ofc volvo will never be fully transparent on the system they use. They're a business first of all, their interest is to keep you hooked on their game while pushing you to spend money on it as much as possible and they will do anything to achieve it. Gotta keep even trash players happy otherwise they'd get tired of losing and leave. These cyclical huge forced drops might they themselves be a way to keep you obsessed with the game, as a sort of challenge/injustice that pushes you to prove yourself and binge play while never quitting. There's always a lot of exploitation of human psychology and marketing strategies behind every company and their products, from the way they set up the algorithm to the sounds they use to trigger the reward satisfaction when killing creeps or the visual impact of the heroes they introduce, don't ever forget that. This is why it will never be totally fair nor clear.

                                        zxc

                                          SLQ i think dota deteriorated your brain. Respectfully.

                                          ,
                                          ,

                                            Lmao you got vac banned? Noice. Ah speaking of your smurfs kabir, I went 5-5 on one of yours in divine 1 with 6k behavior score but nah, archons too stronk to win against them with 10k bhs. It's obvious matchmaking is anything but linear. Can't be otherwise, don't take it personally OP

                                            dota

                                              slq is way too based

                                              Kowareta

                                                the only person pushing you to spend money is yourself as well as the one pushing you to play the game

                                                and for your justification of your mmr loss, when you assume that "ancient" medal was "deserved" and "granted" you end up with these problems

                                                just enjoy the game or remove it , higher mmr means playing against tinker/techies/brood with ruskies in your team. im afraid hell is a nicer place to be

                                                ,
                                                ,

                                                  Of course you have free will and the final decision, but the fact that the external world tries to influence you in every way is a nobrainer. Imagine not seeing the huge cage that the material world is, especially in a money-worshipping capitalist society like this one where profit is everything and humans are just things to control and drain economically. Therefore, don't forget that this company named volvo offers you an entertainment service in hope you'll get addicted to it and spend money on it, so it will adapt the game to suit their goal. Matchmaking has a huge role in this process, considering the structure of the game itself (multiplayer, team-based, ranking system and so on). It's pretty logical.

                                                  Not only do I not care whether I'm 4k 3k or 2k on a videogame and got zero need to justify anything, but getting 5 times to a certain mmr and remaining for months each time with huge winrates on my preferred heroes while dropping just 'cause of tilts is another nobrainer that it was of course deserved. Finding yourself in regular cycles of hopeless losing streaks and strange patterns is annoying as shit though and I agree with OP

                                                  zxc

                                                    Wait. So when I climb from 3k to 6k and cant climb much anymore, does it actually mean Im 7k cuz of the rigged system?

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                                                    zxc

                                                      I agree the system is rigged and my actual mmr is 8k tbh tbh.

                                                      ,
                                                      ,

                                                        No it means you reached your skill level at 6k, like I did at low 4k where I capped. What are you on about? :F

                                                        zxc

                                                          Im confused, will i drop to ancient now like u dropped to archon cuz of this system? How does this system work i dont get it.

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                                                          Kowareta

                                                            yes you would u shitstain, u just stop playing when u ar eon lose streak and making another smurf to abuse the system
                                                            the fact that you can't go higher than 6k is just shows how rigged system is

                                                            ,
                                                            ,

                                                              Kabir I'm deeply sorry but I got bad news. I looked into the mirror and unfortunately haven't turned into Gabe Newell yet, can't answer about when and why exactly the system will fuck you up based on your account. Please ask again on the next full moon

                                                              Bambooni

                                                                My max mmr is around 5.1k mmr and the hole duration of 4k mmr. Right now i'm 3900 mmr and i dropped to 3.8k. You simply can't be having ups and downs like this. This is 1000 mmr difference in skill level across legends/ancient/divine players. The fact that if you're at your current skill level for me is like 4.7-5k mmr for you might be else. But you just can't constantly have mmr drops. As much as i can play in divine 1,2,3 skill i can in legend and above be able to play. You're either stuck in 4k mmr forever or you just drop mmr as much as possible. The player base across 4k mmr is not that big to have this big impact of difference. Yes you get smurfs and boosted people, but this would be a couple of games like 2/10. All, tho i have a couple of losses of some drunk people during the 3k mmr range. Dota 2 is best at punishing the players for trying to go high rank by lose streak. I remember when i broke the fucking 4k mmr barrier was when techies got released. I didn't played it, but i got above 4k mmr. How long would be able for me to play at 5k mmr like in 4k...

                                                                also when the max mmr player was shown when i was 4990 people went full retard mode in trying to lose the game and as higher as u go the dumper people you meet.
                                                                As much as i love this game i hate it thrice as much. I wanna cry.

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                                                                zxc

                                                                  I go past 6k smooth as butter with dr Tinker literally impossible i drop to ancient, but then again i dont play fucking Chen so i dont know your struggle.

                                                                  Kowareta

                                                                    impressive
                                                                    how do you know i dropped to ancient? i thought your mother can keep her mouth shut XDXDXDXD

                                                                    selen simp

                                                                      Diagnosis: skill issue

                                                                      Feachairu

                                                                        You jungle?I trow!

                                                                          Same with my legend account...when i take a star around 4 or 5 the matchmaking puts you with low skilled,acc buyers or trowers.
                                                                          It's almost impossible to rank up,it's frustrating.
                                                                          There's probably an hidden matchmaking aspect that make impossible to rank up!!

                                                                          Kowareta

                                                                            every game i lose is just another proof why matchmaking is R I G G E D
                                                                            2721 reasons why its rigged

                                                                            ⌛

                                                                              This is gonna be a long one boys. I'm equally procrastinating due to apprehension of playing DOTA 2 without any, for lack of a better word, 'rigged' confounds at play.

                                                                              Depends on what you mean by 'rigged.'

                                                                              Generally, rigged implies conditions are fixed with 0 chance of coming ahead or 'winning.' In games like DOTA, also poker, blackjack, and probably other gambling 'games', the game or house or some third party has the edge, not the player. Blackjack most aptly resembles Blackjack, however, in my experience. The above games, however, do permit some chance of coming ahead/'winning' but a very small one. Due to this fact, I just say it's 'rigged' meaning it's fixed in a certain way no doubt. And if tens of thousands of hours of actual experience in their system isn't enough, then I don't know what is.

                                                                              I spent the entirety of 2021 trying to play 'normal' dota. Let me operationally define for you, 'normal dota,' so we're on the same page moving forward.

                                                                              Normal DOTA (in my opinion):
                                                                              +The 5 disparate roles with appropriate heroes assigned to them. In other words, no sniper pos 3 or invoker pos 5....I've invested thousands of hours, thousands of dollars worth of McDonalds and electricity, trying to "improve" or "beat" those chronic conditions, and it's impossible.
                                                                              +Minimal dying by oneself/alone/passed river, an at least moderate level of map awareness (which in turn is connected to rotations, and helping allies in distress).
                                                                              +Generally a 5v5 experience instead of a 1v5/9 one.
                                                                              +Communication, maturity, professionalism, as we would, hopefully, conduct ourselves in person not separated by a wire and distance.

                                                                              With that established, the next thing with regards to this game being 'rigged' is to discuss how teams are organized. The teams are organized, based on numbers, with far too wide of a range. Even worse, there are TWO numbers and maybe even more that are hidden, it's hard to say at this point. One that supposedly measures your skill in the game, and another that measures your behavior.

                                                                              First of all, the system they have in place to measure behavior, as far as I can tell, is mostly automated, and now they've introduced this power feeding bullshit with Overwatch and claiming it's "community driven." If it was community driven, why have I wasted thousands of hours playing single draft games at the whim of some stranger's decision, who has no idea who I am, how much time i've invested into the game, or what the conditions of that particular match was. Because one thing is certain, any time I've broken the rules was in response to my teammates breaking them first, even if that's not a justifiable and immature reason, it's a response to the environment. So what does this thing do? Well nobody actually really can say for sure...except that I've spent thousands of hours playing with no more than 50-70 players with the same names and behavior since oh I dunno, 2018?

                                                                              For a long time, I asked myself how it was possible, that I kept losing with the same names who did the same stuff to throw the game each time. I didn't know too much about programming then, and I was pretty immature still too. So in the face of obvious danger instead of pulling the plug or making a change, just lie to myself and delude myself saying no dota 2 isn't this way, it's me, i need to improve, blame myself instead of the environment that i was willingly putting myself in. And it's not even that clever really. How would I sum up their behavior score system and the number and the impact it has on a player's teammates?

                                                                              +The score is ranged all the way from 1, to 10,000. It resets every, FIFTEEN games (~ 3 days playing 1/3 of the day at least), and the most you can get is +800. And the only way to get +800, is by not getting reported a single time, so in other words, playing perfectly every single time, and that's saying a lot. Consequentially, just one or two reports will tank this score easily. In other words, to realistically "gain" behavior score, you have to not get reported a single time in the course of 15 games, which is plenty of opportunity to have been. In other words, it's designed, whether intentionally or not no idea, so that once you're on the wrong side, it's literally next to impossible for it to go back to normal, whatever that is, since all I'm familiar with is the opposite of 'normal dota.'

                                                                              I looked around for an account that might have had a normal behavior score on it, and this one has 7.6 at the top of a new conduct summary. This'll be my last try at DOTA 2 boys and girls, and I aint gonna look back. Maybe it'll work out, it probably won't, but at least I can move on finally. As far as I'm concerned, this is where I should've been after spending a year wasting my time miserable wanting to punch the rest of my teeth out and jump out the window for far too long. I've wasted hours and hours of time just waiting for 1 or 2 games because of the time locks that are implemented with metrics that deem "punishment." This is the only game where a number dictates how long you wait, how much time you spend NOT playing, as a punishment tactic. Let me be clear, this behavior score system makes the game worse, not better, even though there should be one in place. This is the wrong one and whoever came up with it should be held accountable.

                                                                              DOTA 2 is a lot like blackjack and poker, two games I haven't played in over a year, and probably will never again. It's because I don't like games that are rigged, it's a waste of time.

                                                                              In blackjack, you can count perfectly, have every single chart and move memorized for every situation, and still lose. Just like in dota, you can do everything right, but someone else isn't, and you lose. And people who do that often are filtered numerically into a bag and assigned to be my teammate over and over again. Not my cup of tea anymore. I want to do things that will benefit me down the line.

                                                                              gl hf

                                                                              edit: i think i can pull the plug soon finally... i hope so before it's too late

                                                                              https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/6359330160

                                                                              looks like 7600 behavior score people are picking pos 3 pa and not trading hits, not farming the creeps, and then dying and not being careful just lack of awareness, troll picks same things 10 years 15 years 60 years, until death. same thing 7600 behavior score mid buys an amulet goes afk in base same thing as 1 behavior score, 7600 behavior score

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                                                                              dota

                                                                                ^way too based, too bad kowa gonna come up with a cringe answer

                                                                                Kowareta

                                                                                  a cringe answer

                                                                                  Feachairu

                                                                                    i had a fren who is from 3k mmr ancient something to 6k at 1-2 months time lol by spamming aa 5/undy 5/sky 4 also by watching those bsj jenkins etc youtube videos too

                                                                                    so ye if u know the game u will climb tbh

                                                                                    if u tink ur carries or mids are dumb and doesnt deserve to be supported at den just play that role lol and carry the game yourself

                                                                                    then later wen u at higher mmrs already den u tink u getting outskilled by your teammates then you can start play support

                                                                                    playing core makes you understand alot on wat support must do too

                                                                                    i usually play mid but since i doing role queue farm sometimes, is not like i dunno how to play other roles just because i play mid only (feels like i gain more mmr when play not mid tbh) and can kinda notice what ppl doing bad and not to do the same when i play the other roles

                                                                                    and yes,maybe this is my arrogance speaking but i tink i can play better at the other roles than the other ppl on my bracket lol,and waaay better than those 5ks most of them since i gained probably many experience when i was climbing with 3 accs (heck even i pick something like arc 4 fv 5 ember 3 lesh 3 etc et 1 rather than the usual normal heroes)

                                                                                    so ye,if u wanna be a support player and now stuck at your "stupid teammates" then just play core atm and swap to support later

                                                                                    parmaviolets [muted]

                                                                                      This thread erodes my brain the same way playing ranked mm erodes my brain. If you lose more than 2 games in a row take a break or play some random turbo matches before you tilt yourself like your subhuman teammates its rly not that hard

                                                                                      Geckolimus

                                                                                        @clockface
                                                                                        Good well composed discussion about the matchmaking. You defined ‘normal dota’ nicely.
                                                                                        The only flaw is that you are not dealing with normal Dota when your bh score is low.
                                                                                        May I recommend that you make a fresh account, keep toxicity to a minimum and do your experiment again.

                                                                                        Regards
                                                                                        Gecko

                                                                                        Gooz

                                                                                          @Feachairu why do you still exist?

                                                                                          Feachairu

                                                                                            yes i ressurected from unexistence

                                                                                            ,
                                                                                            ,

                                                                                              Rigged as fuck man. You play well every game on heroes that suit you, get rampages and shit and the next day you get matched with 35% winrate techies, SF going 2 10 in the first 20 minutes, pos 3 void going brown boots bf into aghs with 0 dmg, attack speed or even utility. You pause for the mentally impaired doggo who disconnected, use both heroes to get a kill by yourself and when he comes back he stats spamming tyyyy pudge sarcastically, no idea for what, like an autistic retard after you gave him an assist and was the only one who paused. Also man russians are dogs but have you seen south american apes? This last axe games i asked if it was gonna be another forced loss 'cause i knew it already, 3rd in a row, needless to say it was. I ask my pos 4 to not afk in the trees and at least harass or leave, doggo walks straight into them, feeds and leaves lmao. I said go trilane since dusa couldnt farm, got triggered and went to jungle, the pos 5 comes bot for no reason just to feed twice lal. I go farm to get core items, blink and bm, doggos get mad cuz im farming my basic items. Man matchmaking is not normal, doesnt matter what people say, i'd have no problem saying it if i was bad or had below 4k skills or whatever, this shit forces 50% winrate cuz the longer it takes to climb the longer you'll play and get addicted. It's inhuman how disgustingly they crafted it. Even enemy pos 1 asked what the fuck the supports were doing bot lal

                                                                                              https://it.dotabuff.com/matches/6367101584
                                                                                              look look look, 6-0-5 1v3 top i have to lose cuz of these fucking subhuman inbreds, 3-16-4 mid 3-14 pos 5 piece of shit "im 5k carry", fucking dogs i took 3 towers for while enemy pos 1 was crying and saying to end after 10 min and ofc a fucking smurf in the other team. look how fucking not forced 50% matchmaking is

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                                                                                              ;';>'/'

                                                                                                xdxdxddxxddxxddxdxxddxdx

                                                                                                Metsis

                                                                                                  It doesn't really matter where you are in the MMR ranking, going up is quite hard. And the "back to 50%" is very heavy handed. All of a sudden you get into games with complete "rtards" who start the blame game before before the first bounty runes are spawned and a midder who just walks to enemy base... The flip is really hard! I think the target should be 50.5% or something along those lines. So the MMR would gradually go up. Just to keep people interested and gaining a little rank in the process. To give that sense of progression... Some type of a reward for time spent.

                                                                                                  But with all the smurfs, account buyers etc. the balance is really hard to achieve and this is probably the reason why the system is as heavy handed as it is...

                                                                                                  AD.GokU™ | Repeat.gg

                                                                                                    Low mmr trash cans, with fat egos can't accept that they suck at the game. Blaming everything but their own skills. LUL

                                                                                                    Smokin dog

                                                                                                      There is a thing that whenever you need 1 more win to get to the next rank just invite good player with good streaks to include you in their luck, it is not shameful to ask for just 1 boost to rank up. LOL