my first reaction was;
cookie you dumb, when i have a jungler i always loose!
but the point is, its not because theres a jungler, its because the jungler is also a bad dota player.
only exception to this is bkb imo. I am 100% positive that i lost several games purely because none of my cores got a bkb against stuff like timbersaw or just lineups with heavy magical nukes and disables
a good player will buy bkb, but a better player will hex him before he bkbs
so then a better than a better player would bkb 1 second before the fight starts, but then a better than a better than a better player would know that the enemy is planning to buy a bkb and end the game before he even finishes it.
we can keep spiraling down this reasoning to infinity.
so then a better than a better player would bkb 1 second before the fight starts, but then a better than a better than a better player would know that the enemy is planning to buy a bkb and end the game before he even finishes it.
Dude what are you smoking? I want some of that too.
in case u werent aware cookie there've been several attempts throughout history to formalize and quantify unquantifiable things by people way smarter than u and they all failed dramatically
ofc, it does assume a lot of things like other player's skill being constant, your mood, teammate mood, external factors etc. which of course aren't true
This would only apply given a big sample size.
but for this purpose it is a good enough approximation
actually ure not even formalizing things ure just expressing obvious shit in the most obscure manner possible and pretend it has value
i already feel like i need a lot more teamplay, support in terms of setting up good lanes, coordination for objectives.
game is becoming too hard
obvious to you, but not to everyone else.
Also this was the same logic that lead me into figuring out how to analyse replays properly and increase my mmr by 500+ a month back when i was improving.
(yes I'm a fucking normie, REEE)
I know that it's an hypothesis, but I want to be a smartass for the case of it
If you can give to anyone in the world 1 million dollar or equivalent to that in goods/foreign currency, you have to draw it from somewhere, which mean you have to hold goods worth of almost 7500 trillion dollars
Every accepted form of currency that circulated by a government in the world worth as of date about 3.5 trillion dollar
Congrats! You have just deflated the entire world by 2000% by your sheer existence. Assuming you only gave currency and no goods (which also mean that you only gave 20000 dollars worth of our non scenario dollars), and everybody worth more than 21052.6315789 dollar net just got poorer
And assuming that you have done that without consequence of deflating the world. Currency, you did inflate the worth of any good, since now everyone have 20 times more money, so the price of.l good just got inflated by about 20000%
The worth of a value is determined by the appearance of the said value
Well, I can go now, knowing I did good for the internet, using my flawless logic and my faultproof and professional knowledge
saying items dont matter is like saying picks dont matter. yes, you can win with any lineup but you have a much higher chance of winning with zeus, spectre, venge, centaur and omni compared to io, ld, broodmother, alch and furion.
it's not made to be taken literally ._.
I know, I just wanted to be a smartass
Also I want to be a smartass about my own comment: it is theoretically possible to hold goods worth of 7500 trillion dollars, the worth of earth in raw material for its current value is estimated to be about 16000000000 trillion dollars. Assuming the core composition is about 80% ferrum. So theoretically it is possible for you to hold goods worth of 7500 trillion without deflating the world currency, but you would still inflate the worth of value itself
Yay I did another good
Also jist to develop my train of thought, I know it's not interesting anyone
Assuming I apply this logic in game, I give a determined amount of money to every hero in a certain match
A major difference between in game currency, AKA gold, and real world values, a gold value is a fundamental aspect of the in game currency, everything that is calculated in gold has a direct relation for gold. A value of an item is determined by its worth in gold, a value of a kill is determined by its worth in gold, a value of staying alive is determined by passive gold income (which of itself determined by gold), the net worth of the heroes os determined in gold
When a calculation of an aspect is changed (like a price drop), it's only affects itself, the worth of a gold is the same. Unlike the real world equivalent, which as i said, determined by its own appearance
So by giving everyone a determined amount of gold (or taking) , you aren't deflating its value, instead you equally changing the own net worth of each hero, so it's own worth is changing compared to the other heroes, the poorer gets richer compared to the reacher
So you are straight up changing the power level of the game
Also at a certain amount, that doesn't matter, since there is only a determined value of everything (I guess not for kills, or more likely a certain maximum of an integer), and a limit of the amount of items you can buy (which I don't know the exact amount, and I am on the phone so I can't open a test client to check, but I know that this is due to a potential server exploit related to item counter). So from a certain worth, you literally can't grow in value, the only thing you cam do is buy gems, consumables (and wards) and rapiers, and they won't cause the worth of anything to change since everyone's value would be beyond the rapiers yet capped
So from a certain amount of worth you literally can't grow in value
It doesn't relate to anything, I just had a train of thought and wanted to express it into a paper (or a forum) so i can develop it, why did you read it i have no idea
This stupid game is all about the picking phase right now with certain item on certain heroes being the most broken shit ever. I don't know what are you on about
Honestly aren't you a mindless sheep too since you analyse other people's replays and not form your own strategies? Lul
@memer ofc not, the point of my analysis isn't to blindly copy the playstyle's of higher players, but rather to understand the reasoning behind them.
@Aggressive Perfector but look at the scenario, for 6k bracket it'll mater, but imagine giving the average 1-2k player that same insight ''pick this hero, buy these items, go this lane'' and he'd actually lose winrate as he has no knowledge of the execution of suggested playstyle, and there's even a chance that suggested playstyle won't work in that bracket at all.
obvious to you, but not to everyone else.
"du-u-u-uh if u pley gud u win gud pley bed ur winrate bed"
"du-u-u-uh if u do thing gud u winrate also gud do more things gud = guder winrate"
"du-u-u-uh if u dont upgrade basi into akvila where its gud its not as bed as fid into enemi tower 20 times"
🍩🍪Cookie🍪🍩 11 hours ago..
@memer ofc not, the point of my analysis isn't to blindly copy the playstyle's of higher players, but rather to understand the reasoning behind them.
you could have said just this and it would be more than enough instead of that text wall.
honestly if people would realise that ,would completely change theyr playstyle and make them a much more better player.
If you trying to itemisate on your own instead of copy paste what higher mmr do , you will improve on dota so much faster, you will make a lot of mistakes and bad choises bad thats the only way to improve . people that ihate most are those that have no idea why there have theyr items that they already buy. im not sure how far this goes, i would like your opinon in this cuki, but i know from my experience it goes up to till 5k at least.
people buying farming items and constantly fighting like retards all game, and feeling prety confident himself cause they say some pro games buying those items. it's fucking horrible honestly.
I do that shit sometimes but its almost always when im playing a hero that i haven't played almost never , even than i would try to itemase on my own if im acutally willing to learn that hero eventually.
Items, dear kids are some tools that helps you to achieve your objectives, they are not the objectives himself . so if you dont have an objective in your mind in first place you will never itemase properly , and by trying to play the easy way , auto-pilot by copying a build based on some pro- videos you watched , you will never learn shit about the game.
btw cuki were you inspired by that guy that camme with a topic about objective gaming, and writed a text wall about spectre timing itemization, that ended in the 60 min followed by the final clash of vitctory XDDD.
people buying farming items and constantly fighting like retards all game, and feeling prety confident himself cause they say some pro games buying those items. it's fucking horrible honestly.
i call that running around like a headless chicken. Comes from a lack of knowledge/conflicting knowledge, higher players make a farming build to go farm in that specific game, while lowbies are pulled towards fighting because they're afraid of consequences of non-figthing (they think their teammates will go feeding 4v5 = losing towers = losing the game).
btw cuki were you inspired by that guy that camme with a topic about objective gaming, and writed a text wall about spectre timing itemization, that ended in the 60 min followed by the final clash of vitctory XDDD.
What topic, i actually haven't been reading many topics recently on this forum as I've already stopped playing dota almost completely. I'm just coaching a couple of people, but after that i have no more intentions of playing the game, as it's simply not interesting anymore.
This mostly came from me having some conversations with some of my students, and the majority of the people i've coached really seem to be lacking this for some reason.
you gonna die laughing after this than lul. look what an almost 4k player calles an objective gaming .
BlackXargon 2 days ago
Post your thoughts on how you apply objective gaming in your daily MMR grind depending on the hero or role you use
Generic Perspective as Carry Spectre w/ game evenly matched
1. Get basic items between 10-15min - Phase Boots, Wand, Vanguard or Aquila + Urn
2. Get Relic/Blademail by 20th minute. Prioritize killing supports during haunt/clash. Avoid ganks and not die.
3. Get Radiance between 25-30 min and start split pushing. Destroy enemy T2 safelane by 35 min.
4. Get Manta or Heart by minute 40 and destroy mid T2 tower.
5. Clash/smoke gank/pickoff then secure rosh by minute 45.
6. Destroy enemy T2 offlane by minute 50 and breach highground. Get luxury items like Abyssal, Butterfly or BKB.
7. Destroy shrines by minute 55 then clash/smoke
8. End game by minute 60
that'd be the result of objective gaming, has almost nothing to do with the objective gaming itself. 1k could make that.
i thought blackdragon stopped playing after his last experiment failed
i find it difficult to ask questions abt anything besides items and picks since u cant tell too much abt how u actually played the game from a dotabuff screen
i can evaluate that myself, but in regards to asking others when they arent gonna watch ur whole game, what more can i rlly ask that i did wrong?
So cookie says to stop being a sheep, in that case, how do you gank dodge effectively vs a 4 invis lineup?
You can stick up wards, sure. But they have invis, so you can't be sure if you are safe or not. You can't shove waves, because you can't be sure if they are nearby, even with wards, sure, you can buy sentries, but you can't put the sentries up without risking your life.
They can also deward without you being able to react to it, due to the SB/invis.
using it as an escape can be dealt with easily, but how does one deal with the pressure that a mass invis lineup can create?
I watched one of my replays, and 1 of the ganks I found I could probably have survived if I had reacted differently, the other was one where I got jumped on even though we had wards up in major gank routes. Not to mention they dewarded right afterward.
I was playing TB, what sort of strategy should I have employed in a game like that? how about just any carry at all? (we were behind due to getting ganked by invis SF).
I'm watching my own replays, but I don't feel like I am improving at all :(
What do you do as a safelane carry when you win your lane but your other two lanes lose(mid so badly that they feed a skilled invoker 6 kills)? undying + spectre offlane(no need to explain). I had 75% of all obtainable last hits that game(by gosu.ai) as well as some jungle farm.
How do I come online faster when my other lanes lose and then they ward/deward your jungle over and over again?
So basically i can play jugg supp with x and y item as long as i know what to do?
Well ty captain obvious
only exception to this is bkb imo. I am 100% positive that i lost several games purely because none of my cores got a bkb against stuff like timbersaw or just lineups with heavy magical nukes and disables
on most carries in most games i either don’t buy bkb or buy it very late
Timbersaw+lion against pa for example I wouldn’t buy bkb (well, definitely against low skill players anyway) until very late.
I don’t need to worry until the lion will afk in fog and blink spike+ult on top of timbersaw combo, or similar cooperation
Because of how I position myself, the only way they will catch me with a combo like that at 25-30 minutes is if they deliberately wait to do it. 4ks aren’t very good at executing clean fights like that at all
So no, it’s not just the lack of bkb. It’s no bkb + inability to get your teammates to unintentionally tank stuns for you, or the inability to kite around their disable range, or the inability to burst someone before they can cast their spells
That’s not saying bkb is never absolutely necessary, but if I can play ta against lion+tinker (https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3591066151 ) in a fairly even game and never die outside of the laning phase with no bkb, the solution is two parts better play and one part better items
Bkb is like the primary example of people jerking off about itemization.
“Oh god my pa has shadow blade before bkb against nyx+sky+sniper!”
When if i’m literally two fucking thousand or more mmr above the match average a mobility and damage item is going to give me way more value than it ever should
Didnt read the comments but here is what i think.
Itemization is part of your skill too. Given the same skill of both players i believe if one have a better itemizatilon will have higher percentage of winning vs a bad itemization player. However, a better player can build anything they want because their items comes out way way faster. For example, a lower mmr am will only have abbysal manta bf at 40 min but a 5k am or higher will be 6slotted at 35min. I believe this is the part what cookie want to say but the main problem is how many time you could be more efficient than your current mmr.
@Zardecil you were probably playing the wrong part of the map
also, since you were playing terrorblade you could just send your illusions down a lane to push, or multiple lanes and then determine the location of the enemies given their reaction to that push, or the lack of reaction.
gurupathik made a video on playing from behind, and you can get the in general idea of pushing to get reactions from some of blitz's videos.
For the other question, you have many options like ganking the enemies to comeback your teammates or joining fights after enemies start pushing your tower(s) and so forth
but by far my favorite is using my teammates as meat shields and just letting them feed so i can get shit done on the map, so enemies go gank them? PERFECT! i can use that time to go take some towers and farm from the enemy's part
gank by gank i take a tower by a tower, they kill my teammates 20 times, i kill 6 of their towers. and woosh now i'm 6 slotted at 30 minutes.
What the majority of lowbie newbs will do is, instead of keeping their own push, they'll go chase you. Which is even better because now those 4 idiots on my team can have some space, as long as i am playing smart and never getting cought i'll be winning.
This does, obviously, require that you are constantly wave pushing before they actually go on your teammates so that you are instantly in position to push towers as soon as they start killing/ganking them
So early on, use my laning lead to farm the enemy jungle protected by wards, rather than my own?
Then when enemies group up and push, rat the heck out of them, as they won't be able to kill you if you are smart.
build travels early?
The only issue I can think of is when the fed enemy starts pushing the lane I was pushing before I have a networth advantage.
What sort of lockdown would you suggest for TB? I feel like when I go to solo kill the enemy core, they can just run away.
I push waves with illusions while I farm jungle, so just take that, add more map awareness, and stick it in the enemy jungle? then kill whoever enters after a certain point?
Thanks for the help. Yeah, I have discovered that most of my team is made up of numbskulls, except for 1 every once in a while that actually does something.
How do I decide what item to swap for dust late game vs invis heroes?
Will try that on my next game, anything specific I have to watch out for when looking at enemy lineup that might get in the way?
itemization doesn't matter
Not all of us play on smurf accounts with a third of our actual MMR. 
Idk.
Im just 3k... And i mostly play support and lead my team, (i dont know who say its impossible i always have good teammates and they do what i say almost), im climbing well whit a 66% wr, but even if its a low bracket and i know how 5k plays i dont see huge differences than mechanical skill and really good cooperation and syncro.
Edit: oh and picking phase absolutely.
This for sayng for my esperience itemization its crucial. For both supports and cores even at my shitty noob lmao bracket...
I won several matches becouse the enemy carry just didnt build a bkb or a blink.
I lost several matches becouse the offlaner/jungler build into carry instead doing his job.
Its not the fact he cant carry well, its the fact my team cant engage properly becouse he fucking play as carry....
All things equal, which is what dota rating tries to do, picks and items matter a lot. You can say oh just make better decisions, but if we were already capable of that we'd be in a higher bracket. So you look for other advantages like spamming a hero or building the right items.
There are many right builds though, you can build a lot of different things and they will work. But it's usually pretty clear when someone builds something stupid. Usually it's farm items/midas/late game shit when your team comp is not built for late game or you are getting stompped early.
Draft and teamwork are more important than items.
As you mentioned, items are important in close games where everything else is going according to plan.
Items can vary from game to game.
Sometimes an early force staff over cookie cutter pipe/greaves is the difference between feeding all game and living and helping in team fights.
@cookie I played the map differently for two games and it almost worked once:
https://www.opendota.com/matches/3609243917
This one was hosed by me not buying bkb
did it again and it worked very well:
https://www.opendota.com/matches/3610851164
Thanks for the help!
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So, what is the first thing some average Joe will look at after a loss?
Well, due to his defense mechanisms not wanting him to feel bad about himself, he looks for a way to put this on his teammates.
So, what is the first thing average Joe will see when looking at his teammates?
It's their items, quite the most obvious thing there.
How about you look at it from my perspective, let's think about it like this:
Imagine i gave you 1,000,000$, then you'd be a millionare and you could buy whatever you want.
Now, imagine i gave everyone else on the planet 1,000,000$ as well.
Then the question becomes, could you buy anything with that 1,000,000$, is there any value to that money?
The same way we can look at items, whenever you lose a game there will be a teammate calling ''omg noob X bought Y instead of Z, report him''. This is one of the biggest reasons that puts items as the most frequent topic in dota.
That means everyone will have some basic idea about itemization
So we can say, that an increase in itemization strategy brings you a neglectable increase in chance of winning.
So when will itemization matter? Itemization starts to matter when you're in a bracket where smaller details actually determine the chance of winning. And when teamplay starts mattering such that you are expected to perform a certain role in a fight/game.
AKA when people stop making huge mistakes in terms of decision making (not pushing after a fight, jungling instead of laning, not taking roshan to go HG etc.).
Teamplay can not happen without personal skill, teamplay is something you build upon your personal skill & the skill of your teammates.
Some would argue otherwise, but consider a football match where no one knows how to kick a ball: so if you try to enforce teamplay they will instead slip and kick/injure their own teammates or they would pass the ball to the opposing team.
I realized this a long time ago, and i basically never bothered learning how to completely itemize. I remember back when i was 3k mmr some 4k guy flaming me for going jungle SK and rushing tranq + soulring instead of going offlane and getting arcanes. I got to 5k mmr with that same same jungle tranq + sr build, while that guy is still 4k.
This doesn't make my build good, nor does it make his build bad, it just means that the itemization doesn't matter if you can execute your build. What matters then is everything else that isn't related to building your hero.
The reason that people consider his build(arcanes) good is because it's made by pro players, but all of them midless sheeps just copy/paste the build without any understanding.
But you have to remember 1 thing: Pro players build their own builds given how they plan to execute them, they don't have someone to copy from like lowbies. They will also tend to build items that can do many different things(complying with other strategies), hence the effectiveness of their builds.
So, what would make a build good? or in general, not just builds, but any strategy other like ganking, map awareness, teamplay, teamfighting, pushing, farming?
Well consider what the goal for those players is: Winning the tournament, and getting that money.
What makes a strategy good/bad is how it increases/decreases your chance of winning against some opponent.
Some strategies carry a lower weight(items/skills), some carry a higher weight(game sense/decision making).
Some strategies will simply not work in some scenarios, like exclusive teamplay in low mmr or exclusive soloplay in high mmr.
And, each strategy has a limit to which it can be learned to.
Then what determines your player skill is the sum of those individual strategies and their individual weights, which translates to your overall winrate in a bracket.
So if you want to get better, shat up about the obvious things that you and every other mindless sheep/average Joe knows, like lanes/items/skills , and work on the important things.
tl;dr Items, skills and lanes only start actually mattering when teamplay and roles start being used.
This usually simply doesn't happen under high 4k/low 5k mmr. (high ancient/low divine, for new system)