what? Who care about that! You want mmr? Than play however you like just to win.
Or try techies mid with Venge.
that doesnt make you 'gay'. that makes you smart , that you realised what works better for you in your bracket. i completely agre with you about the popular stuff at high mmr 7k +. they realised that those heroes are 'op' in he meta and that works in theyr bracket. are they ' abusing ' that? maybe you can say that , but this is how dota wokrs . only those who realise what works better and know how to abuse it will win more . " abusing " in dota 2 doesnt make you ' evil' or ' gay' lol. it makes you " smart" .
you know how navi won TI right ? that pudge chen combo , if abusing would be a crime puppey would be in jail for the rest of his life XD
I know good players who're stuck in 3k because they have 0 clue how to draft and pretty much lose the same 25 MMR they gain every other game.
And I have friends who pick Necro/veno/viper all day and still lose because of low-skill/bad itemization.
Don't feel bad if you can combine skill with tactics and good drafting to win games.
Natures prophet is still broken in the offline. As an offlaner your main priority is to ruin the carries farm. As long as you don't get greedy in the offline, it makes the game much easier for you to win
i just feel sad for the sore losers who are stuck in some bracket saying ''OH you got to X mmr only because of A, B, C heroes"
that's just not how mmr works, mmr is an overall measurement of skill.
so it literally doesn't matter what hero you chose, because at best you'll get a couple hundred mmr and that hero will stop working.
there's thousands of players with 500+ games on a single hero, 99% of them are under 5k
same with the versatile players, simply 99% of the playerbase is under 5k, no matter if you spam or play different heroes
mmr is a measurement of your overall skill, not specific skill.
yes it is, objectively given a normal sample size 4k will lane on a 4k level
a 3k will lane on a 3k level
a 2k will lane on a 2k level
etc.
so if you put a 4k into a 2k game in the midlane 1v1 against each other, almost every game(if not every game) the 4k will win the lane.
you could give me the average mmr of the match and the hero name and i could write you a list of mistakes before watching that match, and almost all will be true predictions.
I feel sad for the lowbies who can't coop with their lack of skill so they go ahead and blame the system or say that it's flawed.
the system works perfectly fine.
if you're better than the bracket: you climb.
if you're worse than the bracket: you drop.
if you belong to that braket: your chance of wining is random.
i dont know how to word this properly , but hero choice also is part ' overall measurement of skills' , so about the first part your like right and wrong at the same time cuki. hero pool and hero choise matters. since mmr is a moving number, many high mmr players 'infalted' that number by spaming meta heroes. dont get me wrong ' inflated ' mmr is not =' fake mmr'. but knowing which is hero at the meta and mastering it is skill also, thats why some players drop- or climb mmr based on the meta changes, but higher the hero pool lowers the variances and the chances that you will get affected by those 'changes'. about the part that a 4k will lane on a 4 k level, ect. this is completely wrong ' overall skils ' is much more complicated than that . for ex a 4k player can lane as a "5k" plaer but he compensate that with throws or other bad decision after laning phase thats why he is 4k. i 've seen many 4k + that are disaster at laning stage prety much as a 2 k player , but they are much better at other stuf like team fight games sense itemization ect. the way you talk about dota and mmr cukiboy you make it looks way less complexed than it is , i mean wayyyyy to much.
How about a total switch of position? 4K support player, playing a 2K game in midlane?
Btw, not saying I'm directly hitting you Cookie, but I'll put this out there before anyone else asks: if MMR is an average measurement of skill, and not just of certain heroes, why does your winrate heavily drop after your top 2 heroes of SK and Arc? They're still above 50% yes, but it's a noticeable drop, and at a certain point the other heroes have ugly winrates. Another example, ZDonFrank, his winrate,outside of Riki Bara and few others, is sub 50%. Last example, IceTea, with his absolutely terrible winrate apart from Lycan. He had terrible statistics in a normal skill game, ffs. Then he gave up on his acct and has barely played since.
This is anecdotal evidence, but isn't it showing that spammers are out of their depth when playing at their MMR, but not on their heroes?
Peace cookie, not trying to start any heavy fight ✌🏽
ETdAWESOME, i acutally have quite a big hero pool, i just enjoy spamming arc/sk because they're FUN
i don't know what the others motivations for spamming are, but i just find these heroes so unique and interesting that i can play them forever without getting bored.
a 50%+ winrate on any hero is not a drop, i have 50-70% winrate on all my top heroes, not just arc/sk
if you were to say ''hey you have 30% on all other heroes'' then i'd consider that argument.
icetea quit dota after he reached 5k, his only goal was to prove he can do it by playing solo jungle.
even if you cut out a hero spammers 1-2 heroes, at worst he drops 500 mmr if the majority of his skillset is centered around that hero.
mafioso, a higher hero pool will incerase the variance, because you aren't a master of any of those heroes you just ''know them''
mmr = ability to win games
ability to win games =/= your actual skill
not going to bother typing out essays like you do about this objectively true statement
good bye
lmao what?
what kind of skill do you have?
watching butterflies and birds run around the map?
all worth while skill is to be able to win games.
if whatever ''skill'' you have doesn't contribute to the end goal of winning hte game, then you don't have skill.
or would you like to justify the ye olde '' how tu git vhs, i'm the best player in my game, it's my teammates who lose "
higher hero pool , i mean heroes that you mastered, like if you had 4-5 other mid heores that you mastered same as arc warden, you know this is possible is not that you can master only1-2 heroes max. how can that increase the variances explain pls? like if you have arc ban , or your last pick at it is already a bad game for arc, but is a rly good lets say ta game and you 'mastered' ta same as your arc than will only increase your chances to win.
of course: alche, meepo and ursa.
i have hundreds of games on each, i mastered them a long time before i even started playing arc.
and obviously variance increases with versatile players, *not players with big mastered hero pools*, because you aren't as good with any hero if you're a versitile player.
so you pick to counter your opponent, but you end up becoming useless because you can't play your own hero.
and then on top of that learning the game becomes basically impossibly slow because you can't get over the hero part, so you can work on the ''everything else'' part.
there is no fun on playing same hero all the time , at least for the majority of lets say ' normal human beings" , than there are those species , summyia or (whatever that retarded invoker spamer is called), attacker the kunka spamer , and cukiboy arc warden spamer.
idk bout you but i enjoy spamming, i literally can not get bored of arc/sk
no matter if they're good or bad in the patch, i'll still play them because they're fun.
if i wanted to spam to abuse mmr i would've just learned necro or shaker this patch.
i did not said anything about countering, it looks that your brain refuses to understand that you can have more than 1-2 heroes that you can be rly good with. + the way you talk let to understand that you dont play arc warden cause it is fun but cause that wil increase the variances and lower your chances to win if you play other hereos. like if you try to be versatile to pick the right hero for the game you are afraid you will end up " outplaying yourself" cause yo ucant play that hero at your best , thats what you saying. so when it's reasonable for you to get through 'learning hero part" . 10000 games? the problem is that you consider everyone as yourself , there are other players , 6k players that can play 10-15 maybe more heroes at same level you play your one and only arc warden XD
there's literally no hero in my mastered hero list that i can't play at a 6k level
i take quite the relinquishment of ''mastered'' vs ''learned'', maybe you can't read what i said.
learned means you know all the comboes and items n shit
mastered means you can play against your counters and still own.
alch, am, arc, bs, cm, lich, ls, luna, meepo, od, sk, slardar, slark, sven, terror, tinker, undying, ursa, wr
are heroes that i can guarantee you i have mastered and can play at 6k with no problems what so ever.
and quite a few others which i've learned, but not bothered mastering.
I don't see the bad (obviously knowing every hero and role extremely well is idel) in spamming as long as you're having fun.
I for one and many players i feel don't play enough games due to rl to be able to learn much if if just play different hero's and roles.
Dota so complex that if you don't understand the hero your playing even at a basic level then you never even get a chance in learn the rest of the game.
you dont know that. i mean you recently hit 6k and you did it spaming arc warden , yeah you might know to play those hereos very well cause lets say you practiced them same as your arc, but you did not played enough all those heroes at 6k so you cant know how well you can do with them, for ex if you would play a lot of slark and undying same as you do with arc, you will probably loose a lot more, cause im not sure but for my opinion looks like those heroes are completely out of meta , all what im saying is that hero choise matters, we personalised to much this conversation i honsetly dont care how heroes you can or you think you can play. im jsut against your idea this time i have nothing against you. about the idea what you said mastering means play against your counters and still own , is not true , you can do that only if you playing against weaker players, if you play vs players at your level hero picks its mostly than half - of the game, but yeah that works for you in " long run ", thats why yo uthink like this. but if you would be playing in a real competitive match not mmr releated but like in a tournament or something you rly want to have the decent hero for the game, cause you will not have the chances of playing another 1000 games , you do that in pubs only cause you know that will work mostly of the times in long run.
and no, the idea still stands; because even 6ks will fall to the same problem of picking your counter without having it learned/mastered, not just low players.
we're not talking about pro here, no one on this forum is a pro.
Tournaments and pro players and pubs are completely different, i mean how many different hero's did gh play in ti7? Don't know for sure but es, ns, sladar, kotl, io maybe a few more. The games he didn't play es, io or kotl you noticed he wasn't in his comfort zone but still won ti.
Keep in mind pro players dedicate a extremely high amount of time to the game.
exactly what i said that works for you long run thats why you do it. cause probably in long run you will be playing in 5k or even 4.5k averages and all those guys ar weaker than you . but you playing in a 6k + average mostly of the time, lul . a 6 k will not need to master the counter hero of your hero at all, its enough he knows the basics of the hero cause he already have all " hero related " advandage that he needs.
there's not a single 6k player that can play every hero.
that'd be beyond human, so if they're your average 6k player then any player with hero mastery would outplay a player with just hero knowledge, even if the opponent is his counter.
to beat a player with hero mastery, you're 10x better off playing your own hero than countering him, because that player has played against all his counters.
you'll be there trying to figure out how to abuse the matchup, while he already expects all of your moves before you even figure them out.
Ok thanks for the reply Cuki
I'd love to try to give anecdotal evidence of people in my ranked games who have 800+ games of SF but play like 1K on any other hero, but like many have said, MMR is pretty much the same from 1-3K, I'd love to contest that statement but it feels so true sometimes, the amount of people who just have terrible mechanical skill and gamesense but are somehow with me in a 3K ranked game
You didn't address ZDonFrank's winrate gap, but I guess that's an outlier, not a standard for spammers?
if i recall zdonfrank is doing the all hero challenge, im not sure if there's a single player in ranked that can do that without dropping, but i wouldn't know. But i think zdon doesnt even have other heroes learned, yet alone mastered. So im pretty sure given 10-30 matches on some X hero zdonfrank would float at his mmr.
spamming a hero will inflate/increase your mmr by a couple hundred at best, everything else is your own ability to improve at the actual game instead of just the hero.
look at the hero rankings almost every single player there is like low to mid 4k mmr with 5x more matches than some 6-7k known for that hero.
you don't even know how many people add me to ask me ''how tu git 6k with arc''
if hero mastery of 1-2 heroes is the only thing you know, then you're never going anywhere above 3-4k.
p.s also i'll guarantee you, no one in 3k has any gamesense what so ever, if they did then they wouldn't be 3k.
P.p.s quick reminder to mafioso that i have a specific learning method:
Whenever i want to learn a hero i inatapick it for 50+ games straight so my enemies counter me every game on purpose.
Combine that with analysing high mmr replays and i instantly skip to hero mastery after 50-100 games on that hero.
Which is what i did for each of the heroes i listed.
Just instapick lone druid 50+ games so your enemies don't counter you because they don't know how to counter you anyways.
wHERES my learning experience?
An essential part of learning about Dota, especially Dota at a higher level than yours, is learning how to abuse shit. If u don't learn to abuse invis heroes to get out of 1k, and learn how 2ks deal with invis heroes,you'll never learn to deal with it. You'll probably get stuck there forever wondering how to avoid getting one shot by deso bounty hunters every time u leave base. Or how to deal with offlane axe just cuttings your creepwave behind tier 1 tower.
If u don't abuse shit 3ks don't know how to deal with, you'll never learn how to deal with similar threats yourself. Go abuse until u can't abuse and then learn the next thing to abuse. That's all Dota is about.
Also rofl Arin. Mmr is a measure of winning. Yes. But I can never understand how ppl say winning is not equal to skill. WhT the fuck is skill then. Lmao
There is only one outcome in a Dota game. That's like saying u can be good at chess and the most skilled player but u can't win. What the actual fuck is that logic. I'd like to understand what on earth u mean by that honestly.
You abuse the opponent in every single game. There are no "gay moves" in chess because everything you do that contributes to the victory is attributed to you making the right call in order to win the game. How the fuck is that different from dota? If you realize that centaur/necro/whatever is OP as fuck, it would be lack of skill NOT to pick those heroes if you can play them - it would be a mistake.
Understanding statistics is important, learning how to play what can win by design is a skill too.
'Lone Dog 18 hours ago
Just instapick lone druid 50+ games so your enemies don't counter you because they don't know how to counter you anyways.
wHERES my learning experience?'
yeah thats it prety much i can guarante almost 100 % that 5k below people dont know how to properly deal with arc warden , how players at lower mmr thinks about countering is prety mediocre , they thing only about 1vs1 match ups. another thing that lower mmr players strugle is dealing with split push and teamworking , those are all requiriments to deal with a good arc warc warden player. im prety sure cuki knows that and arc warden was a rly well thinked choise from him to climb mmr , even he acts like he didn't but he playsi that hero cause he likes doing it. yeah ican agre that you like abusing lower skilled player and stomping them with that shit , ofc its enjoyable why not. and trust me i have nothing against that waht we call " abusing ", is all part of dota. but at least admit it you dont have to feel bad about it or something like that. and stop trying to convince yourself that a spamer is qualy skilled with another player at same mmr but that can play at that level with many heroes and roles its not the same thing the differecne is quite big. thats why some 7k even 8 K + are never going pro cause they are spamers and the theyr "overall dota skill " is not even close to other players at same mmr but that can play many more heroes , they game sense "skill" is way much higher than a spammer. deal with it cukiboy . yo ucan still keep " lying" to yourself with your theories but no one else will fall for that , no one even cares in the end of the day.
*facepalm*
i literally didn't want to spam arc warden back when it had rapier and gem enabled because i felt like it was OP.
if spamming would inflate your mmr that much then every spammer would be 6k,
sadly, you can check leaderbaords for any hero, not just ark, and see that they're all 4k, and i couldn't evne imagine know how many are below 4k.
you can say whatever you want, but spamming will not get you anywhere above 3-4k by itself.
lol , yeah i know that for sure i've seen spamers with hundreds of games with same hero and still 1-2 k . im not saying that you are a 4k if you dont spam arc warden man, even arc warden or sk would not exist at all you would still find another way " weapon" to hit 6k, cause you are 6k skilled player dont feel concered or something , thats not what im trying to say , maybe im not wording my idea rly well . what im saying that another 6 k player can be more skilled than you in " dota general skills non hero related" is that there are actually differences even betwen players at same mmr, admit it or not. yeah this shit might open another ideology war here in dotabuf , dont even bother in the end mafioso will win as always XD
below 5k ppl dont know how flux work and essentially try their hardest to tank as much unnecessary damage as possible
it's actually hilarious watching them crawl around like a fly stuck in honey "i'm panickiiiiinnggggggg"
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If I climb MMR with tanky teamfight-oriented offlaners, which have a good win rate, (e.g. abaddon, underlord, centaur, omniknight) am I gay or not?
I just see 0 reasons to play heroes like NP, ES, clockwerk and other stuff popular in superduper-high-mmr-7k-games. I dont think I can fully utilize potential of these heroes and therefore playing them is not effective for me.
I just feel myself a bit 'unfair' cos shitlords in 3k dont know how to play vs these heroes and Im sorta 'AbUsInG' that