General DiscussionBlocking camps with wards - worth it?

Not enough to warrant spending so much resources, maybe block a hard camp or two just so the jungler's farming patterns are interrupted

block pull camp

post-laning if u get a lead its much better to farm them than block them

if they have a jungler it means their lanes are fucking dogshit. capitalize on that and win the first 10 mins because its 4v5.

u block pull camps, otherwise by blocking a camp it becomes obvious to the enemy there is a ward there.

This is a good question, and it reminds me of a doubt I had before that I wanted to discuss, just slipped my mind...

Not so effective early game, but in the mid to late game, when you win teamfights and push towers, it is usual habit to farm their jungle before retreating. However, what might be more effective is to farm everything except for the smallest creep in the camp and leave it alive. This ensures that when the enemy cores come to their jungle to farm, they will get the minimum possible resources. This was even more effective 7.0-7.5, unfortunately thats not the case anymore.

Placing wards there, whether sentries or wards is just too expensive and bound to be dewarded. Its smarter to place a ward that watches 2 to 3 camps simultaneously and then contest stacks when there are any.

why would u leave 1 camp so they can farm something when u can farm everything and not give them literally a single gold from creeps thus wasting their time lmao

they would still go that spot regardless of whether its farmed or not. fog of war exists in dota so its not like they instantly have the info that the spot has creeps on it or not

in fact ur actually hurting YOUR resources by doing so in the scenario where u have the lead, ur purposely cutting off a huge amount of gpm by leaving them alive

Well it depends on your team... Usually I have jungler in my team as well (ideally LC jungle going first item Midas), so its not really punishable. I like to go for strong offlanes (silencer/treant/WD/Tusk+Lycan/Omni), but if I dont go with somebody I know, usually it ends up with solo offlaner.

Line up - with Spectre+dazzle safe lane + riki you will not probably kill Timber with Reactive armor+poor mans and putting there 3 people to shut down offlaner doesnt sounds like good solution, as your offlane is fucked meanwhile. As well, you can gang mid or offlane, but depends on hero and competency and pick of second support.

So generally what I am asking is - I will put resources (320g) to block 4 camps. They need to spend 400g (and in 3.5k MMR it will probably will be jungler, who needs to spend it) at least, maybe more, as they might not find a ward directly, what cripples him and forces him to go laning instead...

And laning with 2 cores (for example LC/Naix/WK/BS) with greedy offlaner (Axe, Timber) seems like bigger advantage... As:
1) They might tilt - combination of naix+Timber sounds hilarious and both will be unhappy on lane
2) They will lose resources - by forcing jungler to lane just makes offlaner and jungler half the size, while shutting offlaner destroys only one.
3) You will have better map control - they cant be jungle, they will be running around spending resources to deward...

Does it sound legit or bulls...?

About farming it - yea, sounds great and in some phases, you can do it. But I am talking about crippling lvl 1 Naix/WK/BS/Axe.

In mid/late game, of course it is better to just sweep through the jungle and take it all, but when you farm all the jungle on the way back from their T2, it will be all alive again.

So it would make sense to just ward all camps after farming them - they have to spend 400g as well (to deward) and the camps are blocked (no resources) for at least a minute. What grants you another 600g - so with 400 gold, you effectively take them probably more than 1k gold away, experience and generally the "reason to play", as they can only push lanes, untill dewarded.

There was not really reason to do it pre 7.06, as it would block only 2-3 spawns, but now, blocking 0:30, 1:00, 2:00, 3:00, 4:00, you effectively force them to lane/Spend resources to deward.

@pyontan

However, what might be more effective is to farm everything except for the smallest creep in the camp and leave it alive.

in fact ur actually hurting YOUR resources by doing so in the scenario where u have the lead, ur purposely cutting off a huge amount of gpm by leaving them alive

So, giving them a full camp instead of sacrificing one small creep and giving them only that is better? Hmm...

how r u going to give them the whole camp if u farm everything

@

combination of naix+Timber sounds hilarious

Both heroes need a lot of farm, timber needs solo xp and both are extremely weak at level 1 and 2

by forcing jungler to lane just makes offlaner and jungler half the size

There are more creep camps than before 7.0 and they spawn every minute since 7.06. It is a bad idea, but yes, they can both get constant farm if they know to finish the camp before the minute mark and stack the other one simultaneously.

You will have better map control

True, you can be more aggressive with supports around the map, but this is highly situational.

@pyontan

how r u going to give them the whole camp if u farm everything

Read patch notes of 7.06, camps spawn every minute instead of every 2 minutes. Its not like farming their jungle once is going to completely deplete them of resources. The minute mark comes by very quickly, especially after you push out the lane creeps after the enemy just took your tower.

its as if kills are not part of dota to you

if u get all of the farm, you potentially hit your timings way faster than them. since u have the luxury to farm off their jungle, that means ur either in a massive lead or in a massive stomp.

now theres 2 scenarios for this:

massive lead - youre effectively throwing away ur networth exp lead by purposely not farming everything. this means that you give the enemy a chance to actually get something out of their jungle when in fact u can just farm everything, ward entry spots, and kill the shit out of them because you have such a huge fucking lead. those small creeps that u dont take will eventually add up and take away a huge chunk of ur lead if u dont get them. u can go do the math if u want

and a massive stomp where u want to farm as much as u want

honestly speaking it seems to me that ur just looking to not lose the game instead of actually winning it, you win a game of dota by being items and levels ahead against the enemy team and u wont be able to do that if u purposely leave out ur resources and give them to the enemy. theres a reason why u dont see this strat in pro games

Well if you block big camp on offlane and 2 medium + 1 big close to the mid, you generally force jungler to move to lane or spend a lot of money to deward. Or live out of 1 small and one big camp, which is destroying possibility to pull for the safe lane. Or live out of medium camp.

And most of the junglers can farm at least 2 camps under minute (at least lvl 3, so definitelly disrupted farm).

there's so many camps even if you blocked some they can still take another and if they really need that camp they just deward
Not worth it

point with the whole dewarding thing is that its futile

ok u deward, they notice it, then pull off their own deward. now u lost around 200-300 gold doing that while they'll just gain it back up in a minute or two

as i said why dont u just go and win your lanes instead of doing useless shit on the map?

in my games where i d played support ive never been able to kick out a jungler from jungling by blocking it, and in most cases we just lose the game because i have no money to do shit anymore

theres a bunch of other useful stuff u can do on the map.

as for lanes that seem "unwinnable" theres always a way to win them because killing the enemy laner isnt always what defines a win in the lane anyway.

sometimes if ur a support dazz and ur against the timber u just zone him out from lv 1 to force him to back. this gives ur spec free farm.

against matchups like sb vs lifestealer where u cant directly kill lifestealer u camp the shit out of their other lanes.

sometimes u just abuse cooldowns to find kills on their od mid as any roamer.

you see theres a lot of useful stuff that ACTUALLY GIVES U A LOT OF XP AND GOLD. blocking only makes it so that ur enemy doesnt get gold in the exchange of your own gold.

it becomes 4v4 anyway.

oh come on he means like leaving the smallest creep in the camp,like the smallest satyr in the big camp so new creeps cant spawn,it wastes a minute of their carry at the very least

@ pyontan

You are talking about situation, when you are stomping them completely. I am not asking for these situations.

I am talking about games, when it is close and you dont know who will win the game/enemy has hero, who can snowball in jungle quickly (i.e. solo offlaner vs support + Sven/Luna, who is sweeping through jungle every minute, after he push the lane.

And other situation is 00:20 blocking camps.

You are focusing on one example, which wasnt even brought up...

imo you should always think about what u gain from a play instead of what ur enemy loses.

thats like saying "oh, im spec, and im against sk. im going to buy 5 salves so that i never die to him in lane and feed him any gold!" is a valid atrategy in the sk vs spec matchup

@BTalker that wasnt for your thread, its for anomalina's posts. my other post refers to ur question

timber isn't even a good offlaner vs a trilane cuz he is easily zoned lvl 1 and once he is behind he will get killed repeatedly.
for example, lets say they have a dazzle + slark + venge lane.
the dazzle will zone u out with poison touch, and with just lvl 1 armor ur not tanky enough, then once ur behind, they'll kill u repeatedly.

@hermann those creeps are gonna die anyway so you potentially give them a camp + 1 small creep. all they have to do is literally wait it out until the new creeps spawn lol

its not like ur enemy's going to be like "oh hey a small satyr was spared, lets not farm it so the new one wont spawn!"

it just doesnt go that way in real practical games

@BTalker
why tf wud u waste time farming or killing or ganking or doing anything to use wards to gain a small net worth advantage that goes away with one sentry, especially now that camps spawn so fast again?
if its a close game then spend ur time securing a lead, not dicking around in their jungle.

raj, take over for me will ya? xD

i dont understand why junglers are a huge threat when they literally do nothing against ur team in the first 15 mins and its not like theyre coming out 2-3 items ahead, theyre still on equal farms with the safelaner lol. this isnt league of legends where the jungler is impactful xd. it doesnt need to be shut down because having a jungler already shut downs his team's lanes

@ road

With Timber depends on the pick - with the line-up you proposed, you will force him away. If you have there instead PA/Spectre + riki + Dazzle, you will just run behind him in the trees, while he leeches the XP.

I have been completely zoned out of offlane once (true, I am not true offlaner). In low MMR (3.5k) people dont zone good enough and if they do, they dont use advantage enough (pulls). So in worst case scenario, if you see this kind of trilane (dazzle+venge+slark), you just go through the secret shop, sit next to lane in jungle and leech comfortably 70% of the XP. Eventually they give up on searching for you and go to offlane/mid and you get into the lane and start contesting with decent lvl (they split the XP between 2-3 people), so even if you afk leech XP, you can be higher level.

You re talking guys about something, what is happening in 5k MMR - these situations happens in 3-3.5k once in 20 games and it is still done poorly.

timber is an extremely gold dependent hero so if he gets forced to do that kind of thing hes fucked up anyway

@ pyontan - Well, if you dont understand, probably you are 7k and in your skill bracket jungle is no issue. Or I should go down to 2.5k bracket, where everybody is so skilled.

In 3 - 3.5k MMR supports dont know, how to use the advantage playing 5x4 in 70% of the games. They dont know how to execute them. They zone, but not well enough. Gangs obviously dont work well half of the time, as sometimes I buy smoke as mid player as first after 20 min. In many situations you are in a team, which has jungler as well.

So yea... Thank you for your opinion, but not really interested in continuing this discussion with you, it is waste of time for both of us.

I am asking how to INFLUENCE the game as (for example) SOLO OFFLANER, when the enemy carry SVEN/LUNA on lvl 5-6 just sweep through jungle and brings extra item on the way back. And if this strategy is POSSIBLE to hurt enemy farm with expense of 400g.

@ timber - well he can get lvl 3 during this "chase" and start getting gold.

As your answer will be again "you just need to stomp them 5x4", your answer is no longer needed. Thanks

not worth it, unless u are Riki who wanna have fun by following the jungler or killing courier or just doing some random bullshit :)

a riki dazzle pa lane wud destroy a timber.
a riki dazzle + any carry wud rekt a timber
timber is dogshit rn as an offlaner, way too farm dependent.
if ur timber is forced to leech xp uve already lost, and against competent supports, they'll just keep pulling and just keep zoning u OUT OF XP RANGE. that's the whole point of zoning.

Once an offlaner blocked our camp in the beginning and my carry told me to deward, then to be able to see his observer I planted my sentry just inside the spawnbox. Boy I was a noob (some argue i still am)

@blurry - I had a game this week, when there was treant, who tried to deward our sentry. With QB, I was able to destroy 4 of his sentries before he destroyed ours and afterwards my support used there second one. :)) Yea, sometimes happens.

P.S. I think I did that once as well, a while ago.

@ story - I enjoy playing riki, killing jungler lvl 1, couriers, or just doing some random bullshit. :)

there's 9 camps on either side

you'd have to spend a fortune to cut someone's farm for 4 minutes

as a roamer it was funny to block the easy and mid camps of the jungler, for him to feed you first blood on the hard camp at lvl 1

but im pretty sure you dont need any more than like a few sentries to gimp him of all farm if you follow him around and body block the spawn

timber is good just need wait lvl 3 to get armor after that noe one can kill u if u play normal if u suck u will get killed over and over

Blocking ancient used to be really good vs stack farmers, but now that there are two spawns it seems significantly less useful to bother

I take away all my points previously mentioned... As I have said on a different post not too long ago, I am in no position to contest Dota knowledge with anyone on this forum, I am trash... All adhere to the god pyontan's points... He makes sense...

if it is absolutely impossible to steal sven's stacks, try warding both ancient camps, even if they deward it after failing to stack it once, you have still spent less money than sven would gain from killing one more ancient camp

I think its better to just play axe and take the stack urself then kill sven haHAA

yes if your full support. if you see a cm stacking creeps for Sven because CM is not seen in map probably jungling while stacking at the same time then CM is in the jungle stacking and farming so yes but you need it to be in a box where wards can never reach it or see it so it won't be dewarded.

@pyontan so you'll give them 2 full camps instead of 1 and a nearly empty one?

dear lord it's like I'm arguing with a wall of bricks. nope fuck this I'm out

I was playing LC jungle then here's this pudge who's blocking the camp and ruining so I go to lane he delayed my farm for at least 5 minutes would work but not that good or worth if your opponent really knows how to farm

in fact ur actually hurting YOUR resources by doing so in the scenario where u have the lead, ur purposely cutting off a huge amount of gpm by leaving them alive

oh yeah leaving a creep worth 20 gold HURTS YOUR RESOURCES SO BAD