1) increase ur HP
2)two hits means u can proc ur crit,stat gain(slark)..list goes on.
3)mana regen is better
4)passive > active
5)slow
dagon seems pretty damn pointless right now, mainly because there is a item that totally outclasses it in the same niche it fills. Blademail is just so much better as an early-mid game item that provides some mana and increases your auto attack damage. It is also a lot more versatile than dagon and costs slightly less.
Echo is good for your early game Hard hitting cores with slow attack speed. (WK, Tiny, Sven) and is also god for getting extra hits in for fast hitting characters. (Slark, PA *Situational*, MK)
Crest is for your avearge support/roaming core to get some extra damage in. (Visage, BH, Mirana, Dazzle)
Every item has it's place. Just because Bloodthorn is a great item for a silence and a crit, doesn't mean I'm getting it on a sniper for my crit.
Blink dagger seems pretty damn pointless right now, mainly because there is a item that totally outclasses it in the same niche it fills. Force Staff is just so much better as an early-mid game item that provides some mana regen and increases your auto attack damage. It is also a lot more versatile than blink dagger and costs slightly less.
Blink dagger seems pretty damn pointless right now, mainly because there is a item that totally outclasses it in the same niche it fills. Dagon is just so much better as an early-mid game item that provides some mana regen and increases your damage. It is also a lot more versatile than blink dagger and costs slightly less.
Damn the replies in this thread are dumb. You guys should really think this through, the only thing echo saber really has going for it over solar crest is the slow and a little bit better building hitting. Solar crest is better for farming, rosh control, and bursting one guy down with right clicks. It also can be used to save an ally and provides a lot more survivability if you don't use the active.
Well, you have teammates right? If one of them already has one, would you build another? It isn't that much better for farming and you really don't need multiple Solar Crests to Rosh.
@??
Right, let me just build that solar crest on slark right then and there, instead of getting some stacks to boost my already awesome hititng power, why not give me more armor and mana instead of HP, Agility, and a decent slow.
It works on some heroes, but not all heroes. I much rather have Echo on Tiny than a Solar Crest because it makes killing people a lot easier for tiny. Being able to hit twice in rapid succession is HUGE for some heroes that a simple armor reduction and evasion won't be able to benfit.
Why do people build Dagon on Tinker? Holy shit, its like a tragic love story: it always ends in death!
Still seems like an awesome item on heroes like Slark, Sven, Tiny and Magnus. All slower hitters who have higher damage. Also see it on a fat roaming SB or smth.
Not to mention, all of those heroes need mana regen, and Echo gives enough of that + pwr treads to sustain farming without having to regen b4 fighting.
Its legit to build echo on cores because you have to carry the game - means you have to hit the enemies hard. Double hitting with slow seems good early and middle game. Example is riki - twice hitting from ur back. Feelsdamngood.
It is funny how most of the heroes being listed here don't even benefit that much from the slow of echo saber, due to their skillset. The reason I made this post to get people out of the mentality of solar crest only on supports, when really the earlier you get it, the better it is. Most supports don't farm it that quick/ need other items first, also Solar crest isn't an item you keep on a carry in the late game just like echo saber isn't. You can also disassemble solar crest while you can't disassemble echo saber.
boots of speed seems pretty damn pointless right now, mainly because there is a item that totally outclasses it in the same niche it fills. windlace is just so much better as an early-mid game item that provides somemovespeed and thus increases your auto attack damage. It is also a lot more versatile than boots of speed and costs slightly less.
You can't tell that from the post. What it says is that solar crest out classes echo and questons why people get it.
The formula of damage with armor is this one:
Damage multiplier = 1 – (0.06 * armor) ÷ (1 + 0.06 * |armor|)
Let's use a tiny as an enemy, because he has 0 armor at level 1 (doesn't have armor items)
Your normal damage output agaisnt him will be %100 (1 - 0 % 1)
Now, if you use Solar Crest on him, he'll have -12 armor. Your damage will be %148(1-[0.06*-12])/(1+0.06*12) = 1-(-0.72)/1.72 = 1.418...) for the entire druation.
Echo Sabre will just improve your damage output of one attack by %100 (double attack) every 5 seconds, meaning an increase in your DPS (damage per second) based on your actual attack speed (and attack animation), the faster you attack, the less Echo Sabre will help you.
If you attack every 1 second, your DPS of autoattacks will be increased by %20 if you ONLY autoattack and the duration of the fight is a multiple of 5 - 1 (so the fight ends when you have your echo out of cd).
But, Solar Crest will increase ANY physical damage the that enemy for the duration, so it'll increase your DPS by that amout regardless of the duration of the fight.
Taking that in mind, echo sabre will just increase your dps by %20 in prolonged fights, but by a %100 in 1 second fights with very slow attackers (again, depending in your attack animation and attack speed).
Anyway, Solar Crest reduces armor, so the exact number will be different by a lot:
Target armor = 12
1-(0.72)/1.72 = 0.581...
Before Solar Crest, your physical damage is reduced by 0.418, meaning you're dealing only %58 of your damage. After Solar Crest, you're dealing that %100, meaning your dps increased by a %41.
The difference in Solar Crest and Echo Sabre in form of dps is:
Solar Crest = consistent dps increase but is based a lot in your target's armor.
Echo Sabre = a %100 damage increase in one attack (without taking in account attack modifiers).
Solar gives evasion and miss chance, Echo gives attack and move slow.
In mana regeneration, Solar gives less mana, because only gives %75 mana regeneration, while Echo Sabre gives you a bonus of 10 intelligence, meaning a 0.4 extra mana regeneration (without %-based increase), and a %75 mana regenartion too.
Solar Crest = (0.01+intelligence*0.04)*1.75 = your mana regeneration
Echo Sabre = [0.01+(intelligence+10)*0.04]*1.75= same as solar crest but with 0.4*1.75=0.7 extra
Echo Sabre's intelligence will be boosted by your other %-based increases, meaning that Ring of Aquila, Sage Mask, etc will be even better.
TL;DR= Echo gives more mana, mana regeneration, health, health regen, DPS for slower attackers in very fast fights and slow.
Solar Crest gives mana regeneration, evasion/miss, armor and DPS for all physical damage against lower armor enemies.
Because of that, Echo is good with very slow attackers (Tiny, for example) because adds a lot of dps, while solar crest is very good with heavy physical abilities users (Bounty Hunter, Dazzle, etc).
Hope this helps.
Echo saber's 0.6 movespeed slow, is often enough to start the third attack after the initial attack, and the echo sabre's bonus attack.
In combination with bash effects and/or other proc based passives, it makes a huge difference compared to the solar crest, as a bash proc from passives or the item, yields 1-1.4 seconds of stun, bonus damage, time to reposition and a lot of space for allies to respond.
Which in comparison to the solar crest, if your enemy has begun to run, you are likely to only get a single attack in before they start to move out of your attack range. If that doesn't proc any passive effect that will further help you maintain control over an enemy, the chance for a kill is gone.
The sabre, usually yields 3 attempts to proc.
How many offlaners do you really see rushing solar crests, not really that many more than supports. You also can't really depend on your team that much in pubs, and you can definitely use more than one on a team without problems and like I said you can disassemble Solar crest for a late game item. Yuyuko your wall of text is mistaken, if a unit has 12 armor which is kinda common around early-mid game solar crest adds 72% more physical damage on the target for your whole team. I don't think that tiny is that good of a echo saber or solar crest hero since really he needs too many items to function well as a physical focused build. Xebria your situation barely happens at all, if you actually think about the heroes/itemization of echo saber buyers. A few examples would LS? you already have a slow, WK and Sven? you have a stun and in WK's case stun/slow, Magnus? you have skewer and Rp, Slark? you have pounce.
Then again tiny is not that great of a hero now because as you mention he need like agh blink ac to be able to fight on the same level of luna with dlance domi and manta
Can we just ignore this dunning kruger retard. Echo gives strength, attack speed, mana regen, int, damage, a second hit, and a slow. Solar crest gives minus armor, and evasion and armor and less mana regen. Echo sabre is good on heroes who want to deal right click burst, want to proc certain passives, and who need mana. Solar crest just makes u squishier, and doesnt suit the play style of heroes who buy echo like slark, sven, tiny, who dont want to make themselves squishier, want to deal their damage quickly, and need more mana regen. Solar crest suits heroes who can sit back and r thus fine with lowering their armor, and who want the early game medallion for better TEAM dmg.
And r u saying that cuz wk and sven and tiny and slark and magnus have disables means they dont benefit from slow? Thats like saying abyssal is bad on lifestealer cuz he has a slow. All of these heroes r melee which means to some degree they are dependent on being on top of their opponents. A 4ish second aoe bkb piercing stun on magnus with a cd of abt 170 seconds doesnt mean that slowing heroes is any less valuable.
Heroes like Slark or Spirit Breaker still do mostly magical damage in the early and mid game, so getting Solar Crest is a waste.
Yeap, I misstype the number, your dps increase by a %72 against a 12 armor target.
But remember, echo gives you 10 strength, meaning 200 extra HP and 0.3 extrea health regen (0.03 * strength), 10 attack speed and 15 damage, so the item brings you more things than dps and mana regen.
Tiny 9 base agility and an agility grow of 0.9, meaning he has at level 1 109.9 attack speed.
Let's say Tiny has Echo Sabre by level 10, so he has normally 118 attack speed. Echo gives him 10 attack speed, now he has 128 attack speed.
He atttacks at a rate of:
[(100 + IAS) × 0.01] / BAT
[128*0.01]/1.7
1.28/1.7 = 0.752 attacks per second
BUT, the first attack hits twice, meaning his attacks per second are:
(5*0.752)+1=4.76 attacks
Before echo, he would attack 3.76 times, now he attacks 4.76
100/3.76*4.76 = %126 = his dps based in his attack damage, echo increased it by %26 (without counting in the +strenght and damage of echo and without ult)
But, Tiny already has strong damage by abilities, meaning he's using echo only for burst damage (blink + avalanche + toss + auto attacks) and for the better mana and mana regeneration. The same goes for WK and Sven, both need more mana and they don't attack fast, but they deal very high attack damage (critical and god's strength).
Yeah, because I can't do math if I'm not 7k.
At least I'm giving more detailed information and trying to help you, because this is a forum.
people dont buy echo sabre, unless they play slark/tiny/sven, it's that simple.
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Echo saber seems pretty damn pointless right now, mainly because there is a item that totally outclasses it in the same niche it fills. Solar crest is just so much better as an early-mid game item that provides some mana regen and increases your auto attack damage. It is also a lot more versatile than echo saber and costs slightly less.