because jungle axe is actually faster than offlane axe
high tier players go jungle axe for first couple min, they get like 4 min lvl 6 and just go offlane and stomp the game
low tier shits stay in jungle forever doing nothing
so is jungle bad? no, it can be amazing
are your teammates/enemies bad? absolutely
axe junglers never see the line up. even when i tell them i can help greatly at lane ( i am a frickin silencer). they just braindead mind and insist i solo offlane instead of win the lane overall (offlane = maybe less money less exp but u make the opposing contested farm and force support to keep guarding safe lane, jungle = more money more exp , safe lane oppenent non contested , support can roam everywhere ruining your team farm overall)
like i said, your teammates are trash. nothing you can do about them being trash in that game.
play and win for yourself, not for them
a guy first picks am
i pick slark mid
next guy picks shadow demon
next guy picks axe-highlights jungle
last guy told to pick a hero that can hold a lane by himself, something braindead like a bb or tide
last picks nature's prophet
im like yeah this guy must watch bulldong's streams wanna be like him, i respect that
> i farm ancient cliffs
we lost
bcuz they are sick and tired of all the cancerous toxic players and they don't even know its them :)
2 junglers in 1 game = sislovesme.com
most of the hate towards people who jungle comes from:
1) them being awful at jungling
2) them being awful at the game in a particular bracket
3) them not picking a jungler early enough so that the draft can adapt
4) them remaining forever in the jungle
5) teammates not picking around that, instead picking random shit
6) particular jungler not being fit for the game (lc vs dazzle, bane, oracle, etc)
7) mid can have much more farm if the jungler does not take the camps close to mid
I play a lot of jungle because it's almost impossible to get mid or safelane in 3.3k on euw/eue, so I end up with Svens who rush MoM and don't stack ancients, and if I played Sven I'd outfarm most people unless my team massively feeds, so I am literally letting worse players go to safelane ebcause I try not to depend on them winning the game for me, but rather that I win for them, because they are too stubborn to give up a position they are awful at, even at that particular MMR.
If I pick solo offlane, some retard will pick jungle lifestaeler and go for midas, and never leave the jungle for 20 minutes, instead when I go to jungle I get my stout shield, then boots and TP, and no matter what I picked I am ready to rotate because I am also conserving mana, I leave the jungle at level 6 no matter what the hero is, and then just turn the game on its head.
A lot of people play too aggresively even when they can't, in 3k people also play stupidly and have no fucking idea what can kill them, and then ping people at 30hp retreating to the base, despite the fact that under no circumstances can anybody rotate to kill them, and they are like "well, their carry is low hp!", despite the fact they just fed a to the enemy carry.
Now, I get it, people make mistakes and all, but in a lot of cases, if somebody is any good at jungling and then taking the game from there (at least at that MMR), it is in a lot of cases someone else's fault that the draft (and, subsequently, the game) fails.
Jungling can be done well, and is often done well even at really high MMR (and in competitive), so your complaints should go to players being shit, not them being junglers, unless they last pick a jungler and you REALLY need a second support, which is a shitty thing to do.
Also I see no fucking reason to lane bloodseeker ever, because he's pretty shit as a solo or dual offlaner but desperately needs levels, he doesn't scale that well to warrant mid or safelane position, and he can get levels ridiculously fast and later get money from roaming and killing people and farming the enemy jungle, so he does not take farm from pos 1 and 2, people who demand that I lane with them because they picked skywrath instead of a proper offlaner, after I first picked blood seeker, can go fuck themselves because the last time that happened I was level 4 at 5 minutes instead of level 6, for no fucking reason.
Because most people are narrow-minded, thinking dota is the same shit every match
I go jungle
I get undisturbed
I get fat
I kill people
I win <- this damn mindset
they aren't narrow minded, they are just really bad at the game, at your level a good player could jungle every game and win, even I had 70%+ winrate going from 1k to 3k by spamming legion jungle every game
it is all about what you actually do and how you play with it, you don't even have to worry about counterpicks yet
because uncontested jungle is actually extremely consistent farm so it's better for a few heroes. Wk and luna are not those heroes though. Although it's better to have slow jungle I guess over a really awful lane where your supports suck and you get dived and have 20 cs min 8.
^pretty much this, also some junglers benefit from the other team having junglers, I get level 6 on bs at minute 4 if the enemy has a jungler because he'll be low hp often, so I can maximize my impact as well, in no lane could I have level 6 on minute 4 unless I get a kill or get all exp from creeps and go take a jungle camp which is still doable though.
Another thing people always forget to do as a jungler in lower MMR is to actually rotate if somebody is getting dived, because it is almost a 100% sure kill in most cases since if your mid and you are both level 4 and the enemy dives as level 4 as well, or he dives with a lvl 2 support, you'll win every single matchup in that scenario (unless it's a good chen with creeps but that will never happen at lower levels).
A jungler who creates a great exp lead for your team and actually rotates to help people is in a lot of cases better than underleveled supports who just sap exp in the lane of your carry. If my teammate picks timbersaw I PRAY that we get a jungler or roamer because otherwise I will have two brain dead supports sitting in the lane and leeching exp, because 3k people cannot do trilanes AT FUCKING ALL, and timbersaw needs a solo lane.
step 1 highlight LC and mark jungle
step 2 say "brb"
step 3 wait for some poor sap to pick a support
step 4 pick a second support and enjoy your balanced team comp
The wild card here of course is the regional 3rd world shit bags from countries that don't use toilet paper and more people own goats than flushing toilets(pinoy/peru/russian etc.) who will still pick a jungler or second mid or something anyway. But the thing is, even if that happens and you have to solo support, you're no worse off than you were before in those games
@Return by Cringe THIS.
In 3k it's like impossible to play mid or safe.
In this game http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2754798507 i pick Weaver for offlane, last pick earthshaker who want the offlane solo. Is Weaver a good jungler ? No! Is Weaver better at jungling then offlane with a retard who ping you 10 times by second and think ES is a good carry beacause miracle- play mid with it ? Yes!
I don't know how it is in VHS but when I Watch Stream it look like retards are in every bracket. Sometimes pour pick a mid hero and someone pick pudge and want mid. I'm done with this kind of behavior so I pick jungle when I just want to enjoy the game.
Solo support is hard. I would love to be a good support, but it's too hard. I wish I can support my carry and give him an easy +25 but it look like it's impossible. When I play support I focus all my game on simple things, give vision to my team, give a farm to my carry (and not die). But i still die alot because i'm a 3k trash and i'm all time out of position.
Solo support is not that hard anymore, since supports are really buffed in the last few patches. If you know what you're doing you can get your boots, and still manage to get all the wards and stuff. However, if I play a jungler and see a support really struggle I will usually buy some wards or upgrade the courier if the support can't afford boots and stuff like that.
Solo support means that you have to win safelane and only then can you rotate, instead of having two supports out of which one can rotate, but if you jungle smart, you can be the one to defend people from ganks if you have a brain cell or two (as I said, getting an early TP is the key here, as well as not jungling at 30 hp).
Solo support just means you are a ward bitch and have to babysit your carry usually. That's what sucks about it, no fun roaming, no shutting down offlane, no fun items.
Enchantress and chen r example of good junglers. Bad ench or chen stay in jungle. Good ench or chen gank hard with creep after a couple levels.
Jungling is also an offlane thing since there is that camp by secret shop. A good axe will jungle that and farm lane (at least for xp).
that is why the feign core jungle maneuver works. You don't get stuck only buying wards all game and hoping your team doesn't suck. You trick someone into playing support, split the ward duties, and you can get a few decent items each.
Another problem with junglers is dealing with invis heroes, since a solo support can't ward his lane and protect mid and your jungling lc from a roaming bounty/clinkz/rikki.
also something I forgot to mention about pretending to jungle LC is you can trick 2/3k pubs into trilaning. At the last minute when you pick lion or something just say no I'm jungling Lion I saw it on reddit. Proceed to get FB with your extra disable against an offlaner, then just pull and harass while your other support plays what he thinks is support, i.e. standing in lane sapping exp.
if the enemy doesnt have shit like riki i would love an axe jungle on my team.
if you dont get roamed on and killed in the jungle you can have vangaurd and blink by 10-11 minutes regardless of camp spawns getting runes etc.
i honestly dont see why jungle axe's dont have massive winrates in lower skill games, you can outfarm anything but an alchemist, people wont mess with your jungling if you last pick, and when you have vang and blink you will steamroll those antimages with 40 cs.
i must be missing something that happens in these 'jungle lc every game' tiers.
The idea of jungling is to get lvl 6 asap and rekt other lanes.
if u see someone picks lc or bs, got lvl 6 and stays in the jungle, he's doing it wrong.
If u see an axe stays in jungle while towers are dived. he's doing it wrong.
Those people aren't junglers, they are pain in the ass.
u can do a lot for being a good jungler.
^this is the point
I think there's a reason why edictzero has 2352 MMR after 3,670 fucking matches, that's what you get when you "force a trilane" in 2k rofl
me with a LC ranked last 6 months %39 wr
http://www.dotabuff.com/players/100179061/matches?date=6month&lobby_type=ranked_matchmaking&opponent_hero=legion-commander
me against lc ranked last 6 months %56 wr
It works even with a 2k shitter such as myself
http://www.dotabuff.com/players/159924591/matches?date=all&hero=legion-commander&lane_role=jungle
me playing jungle lc, 68% winrate compared to my general LC winrate of 61%
I am actually more likely to win games as LC if I jungle because I will more consistently get levels and gold, if I am solo laning I can get rekt and get no gold, if I am dual laning I can get a brain damaged lane partner and then go to jungle (late). Instead of that I juts go to jungle, get levels and gold and then wreck mid, and other lanes afterwards, plus I keep enough mana to tp and heal.
Now, that you can't play like that, or that most junglers don't is another thing, but jungling LC or BS or Axe is very viable and can be really useful if you do it right.
you last 6 months in ranked %40 :(
http://www.dotabuff.com/players/159924591/matches?date=6month&lobby_type=ranked_matchmaking&hero=legion-commander&lane_role=jungle
gosh that 6.85 was a helluva patch tho
i should point out that my %39 wr is with an lc on my team, not me playing her(which is probably even worse though)
^you linked a sample pool of 5 games, it could as well have been 0% (if I won one of those games, it would not be 40% but 60%) and it would not matter, compared to the sample pool of 32 games that I linked (which is still low but not all games are processed, most of my LC games are jungle anyway)
I get it, but the point is that it is not that something is inherently bad, it's just that people do shit badly, arc warden has 40% winrate sub 2k, and the hero is absolutely OP, that doesn't mean he's a bad hero, but that people are terrible at playing it, likewise, low MMR people are terrible at jungling because they are terrible at EVERYTHING
the one thing I hate the most when I jungle is when people pick shit carries or heroes that can't carry at all anymore
like, I will get the advantage for the team once I come out of the jungle, I will create space, I will gank, I will leave the whole map for my carry to farm
the only problem is that my carry is bounty and theirs is medusa and no matter how much I gank as legion or bs the enemy will still get their farm eventually because we still can't properly push unless I also push, along with ganking
even in those cases I hope that I can at least carry the game alone, or the mid player at least has some brain cells, or the offlane snowballs, or any combination of those, I really don't try too hard to win the games out of jungle alone, I tryhard when I'm the safelane carry, but when I am a jungler I try to focus more on making sure that we actually have a carry and the opposing team doesn't (I had a game where antimage didn't have battlefury at 40 minutes because I picked blood seeker and absolutely ruined his life).
@midortechies
Axe forced me (silencer) to lane offlane. Bounty cannot guard void enough so weaver free farm at our safe lane. Sure axe get kills, but it is worth void died 4 times in laning phase? Worth weaver become so rich ? If i can guard my void top i can zone weaver easily
Ur KDA good as jungler sacrificed ur team gold exp overall.
Btw silencer + axe dual offlane sure will be cancer and win the lane for our selves
Sure less gold, but u contestes the farm , forcing supports play passive
High kda does not mean you play good
Who is the dumbass who said i can win game with jungle axe by getting blink vang at 11 min. U r a retard. Axe wins by being the strongest hero on the map at 4-6 min in the game. He doesnt need a blink to force enemy melee carry to buy talon and jungle, and when he gets it he can move into the jungle and start killing the carry there too. The more u wait as axe to start pressuring, the more u r giving up. Unless u r against some cancer lane like venge + luna there isnt a reason to only jungle. Take the large camps by the offlane? Fine. But just go jungle and not come out is imo a waste of incredible early game power that axe cqn leverage to create so much space.
@FeeTooPee:
He didn't force you anything. Axe picked 3rd, meaing you could pick something else and support or offlane. Even if you were supporting void, weaver would have freefarm because u picked a hero with no stun against that lineup.
You cannot zone a weaver with silencer, you cannot trade hits with a weaver at all.
Axe literally had highest impact in the game. So you wanted to dual offlane with axe, yet you are complaining about how void is getting rekt and weaver is getting farm. Sorry but are you autistic?
And you wouldn't rek anything, they had Zeus, wyvern and sven trilane, axe would only get nuked and stay poor.
High KDA does mean you play good 90% of the times. He had most HD, KDA etc.
^this reminds me of every single game people wanted me to go offlane with legion or bs, only to end up underleveled and underfarmed because I cannot contest their safelane
the worst scenario is that I feed, the next worst scenario is that I don't get exp, the third worst scenario is that I get exp but no gold
meanwhile, I can jungle, get both exp and gold instead of risking any of the three, without any possibility of actually contesting farm to begin with
people need to realize that trilanes are a thing, strong lanes exist, playing it safe wins games, and using the exp momentum to your advantage is good, but people can't learn this because a typical jungler leaves jungle at 10+ minutes with inefficient farm and when it's too late to do anything
I mean, if the enemy picks spectre, and I see their safelane is going to be weak, I am by all means gonna pick legion, get poor man's shield, dive that spectre, contest pulls and do whatever even in solo offlane because I FUCKING CAN
most of the times, though, the games are not such that I can abuse the safelane and it's therefore much better to just go jungle, leave somebody to sap exp/try to farm something or contest the enemy safelane while I am steadily getting my farm
by the midgame I will not be farming my side of the map so even with a multi core lineup we do not have too many cores farming our side of the map because my duty is to constantly gank
Tbh as legion u can sap xp and jungle that large camp by secret shop, wait for them to push, the take safe lh under tower. However if u play against good tri lane that knows what theyre doing it probably wont work.
^the main word here is CONSISTENCY, it is not about whether you can HOPE it will work or not, it is just that nothing is as consistent as jungle, unless they pick riki bh and such, in which case you just get sentries, and beat them up if they come to contest you because you can do that...
If the safelane is weak, go contest it, if the safelane is strong, go jungle, let someone less needy take the offlane, it's that simple
there's literally zero reason for you to stay in a lane you can't contest as legion, because you're really fast at jungling if you know what you're doing
@midortechies
Silencer have glaive + arcane curse + sentry to zone hard
Silencer cannot zone ? Really mate?
Oh yea my bounty hunter forced to lane not roaming around is not game losing at all
And i can tp around to supports other lane, and with bh presuring map, ideally their support have to move around too, give axe an easy lane + me or bh roaming around
And after laning phase, good luck sharing the farm on the team when cannot team fight
Enjoy stealing each other farm
Ez all poor after "rich" laning phase
@Fee To Pee
Tbh if i were axe, ill lane mid to deal with alch, shove razor to go safelane and void to offlane, that alch is dealing the most damage to ur team.
"low MMR people are terrible at jungling because they are terrible at EVERYTHING"
i think we have found the answer. wp senpai
Doesn't matter because they should be all low mmr. You will also out farm your opponent with 20cs/10min if he only gets 10.
The problem is that low mmr people don't know what they should pick, in which Lane they should play and don't know which advantages and possibility some lineups had.
Sometimes they play tinker jungle, lion mid, am solo offline and techies and bounty safe.
I actually love roaming with axe when i jungle him, with 1 point in battle hunger + boots + wind lance you can chase and dive easily.
And you get lvl 6 and those little items in little more than 4 minutes. I even have seen some jungle guide for lvl 6 in3 minutes.
$$$ FAST BLINK DAGGER
$$$ NEED BATTLE FURY
$$$ NEED DAEDALUS
$$$ ORCHID MALEVOLENCE!
$$$ MANTA STYLE
Sometimes axe can't dominate the lane or maybe getting a quick blink + vanguard is more important than winning the lane. It's not right to jungle axe every game but there are lots of situations where it's the right call. As for why people(especially at lower mmrs) jungle all the time is because they're either really bad at last hitting or they can't handle being contested. Most of the time people won't mess with you in the jungle so it's risk/skill free farming and a lot of players like that.
If the enemy has drow and dazzle in the safelane you won't be able to contest the lane for shit, and that's just a dual lane, it's not even a strong trilane. Now, you have a choice, go to that lane and feed or remain underfarmed and underleveled, or just go get some farm in the jungle and then smoke gank their safelane with a hero that has a ranged disable or silence or whatever. The thing is, axe is very strong at level 6, you can get it at 4 (or even 3) minutes, and likewise you can just stand in the lane doing nothing against two ranged heroes.
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seriously....
couple days ago i played 5 match, all of them have jungler on my team : 2 LC , LUNA (people keep want to pick carry after luna picked) , WK, AND AXE. yep AXE
axe the lane dominator , feared on offlane vs melee carries , give trauma for touching creep (especially dual aggresive offlane, example : dazzle + axe)
Now only a coward that farm "Fast dagger" jungle at the cost = safe lane dies to roamers , offlane play passive , minimum rotation to mid. and being a fucking paper because item only tranq + dagger
i literally never see axe on my team goes offlane ( i even offer them will pick dazzle to support them in offlane) but no i am axe what is fight early? better farm dagger lul
it seems skill named battle hunger not existed for them (chase with skill 2 follow up by call with vanguard + tranq early offlane is frustating)
TL :DR
YO CAN YOU AXE PLAYER GO OFFLANE NOW INSTEAD OF FRICKIN JUNGLE???????? AND STOP BLAME TEAM FOR FEEDING WHILE U JUNGLE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD
seriously is the mind of axe player now only dagger? you know u can tank for the team?