isnt blink just as useful for split push? i just feel like blink is too good to pass up on fury jugg, you get to spread the map with split push so you need dagger to capitalize on those easy pick off opportunities
i feel like if you don't die and you have bf yasha you can farm dagger really fast anyway, i think yashas atk speed ms and dmg is > dagger for farm especially for stacks
thats my main point of view, and i do remember going dagger first at least one game now, and that game everyone was feeding but me so i really was pressured to have a faster impact
like in a perfect game i would go manta before dagger cuz i would have it fast.
but in a game where im having ok farm but my team is really struggling, i feel like i have to put up some extra effort to keep the balance knamsayin' so dagger comes to mind early only in hard games
if you can gather up as five and just push with ward you don't really need that dagger, its more for rax push imo.
but if your team is too weak to try to push 5 v 5 then you have to do it solo, and get pickoffs earlier, solo, with dagger
well duh u buy items!? why would u draw conclusions based on no items/bad items/no stats? doesnt make sense
fury is still good in certain games cos you might not be strong enough to just 5 man push or whatever, or maybe they just choose to rat you out so u need to deal with the split push. Also his blade fury effectiveness wanes so sometimes you just hav to farm to capitalize on ur next timing as a late game hero
i personally never get treads on jugg, the one game where i did it i failed super hard i think
treads however is better than phase for farming tho, tread switch + aquila on a low int hero = ungodly amounts of mana + the stat bonus works on quelling unlike raw dmg from phase.
however i think the phase ability is really crucial for jugg simply in terms of the mobility it gives on a hero that 1) has no lockdown 2) is really needed to join early mid game fights (+ms is really strong for early mid game fights as it helps you tp counterfight really well and helps you cut the backlines who cant kite ur ms with force/blinks in the early stage)
also allows you to apply more pressure on the offlaner compared to treads, which i like
just my personal opinion tho.
E: it also depends on a few other factors i feel. Like uhm say if u get a fast phase boots (2-4min) etc and the enemy offlaner, even if hes a ranged, as long as he doesnt have boots he has to play really scared and ur supports can leave u 1v1 and ure gna get free farm. where as if you went fast treads you wont be able to apply even half as much pressure
i dont think thats optimal most games (im assuming you mean even without small items like aquila and/or wand)
http://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/juggernaut/guides pretty much every good jugg player goes for small stat items (like aquila at the very least) even when going fury
Jo is phase>drums>bfury with occasional mangoes bad?
You taught me the bfury>blink build a while back how do i maximize this build in 2k? I think w/o bot pushing is such a pain in the ass. Either two of these possibilities: I push a t2 but my team is just so plain dumb for trying a 4v5, they lose but they seem unfazed with the pressure and game quickly becomes a base race xd ofc im gonna lose the gamble i created
Jug farms good enough anyway without battle fury I think I'm abandoning it. And I love lifesteal on him, going back to that, probably Vlads for regen vs possibility of satabic late.
not really i think wand is really strong for fighting and aquila good for pressuring towers and farming so you shouldnt have mangoes instead of either one of them. also personally i find the claymore/broadsword component fairly useless so i dont save slots for them
you just keep pressuring the safe lane, like right up to the t2s (ofc depends if they have really strong silence/burst/catch/bkb pierce then use ur own judgement of deciding when isit safe to do so), its nice if u have some wards so if you spot a single hero/coming to gank you in different directions you can just blink omnislash then spin and tp out
+ if you are scared then pre cast your healing ward and hide it behide you, that way its more unlikely you get bursted down before being able to spin drums phase run or spin tp whatnot.
if you think its safe you can keep rotating to clear the offlane hard camp + ancients, this is where i like the cross terrain aspect of blink.
i dont see what so complicated about fights, if you think you joining will make a difference then tp and help, if you cant then you settle for a t2. or maybe you get the t2 instead idk im not too sure myself.
@direwolf ok well if u find that build successful then go for it i guess.
What's the best way to cast ward? People always kill mine so quickly and I hate having to place it. Wish you could select it like a minion with select all groups. I need to customize controls and quick cast it I guess.
i have it saved as "2"
i cast ward behind me, press 2 then send it even further back, and the healing duration lasts for 2+ seconds so you dont need the ward to be super close to u
u can cast it into trees if u wish, but i dont do that cos im scared it get stuck or some shit
i used to have it binded some time ago, but now i just have 1- hero 2-all other units 3- all units
hvaent played meepo or any micro hero for some times too so im lazy to add groups or soemthsing
@direwolf You have the bind to control group key.. Click the ward and bind to some key by using Ctrl+ the key.. You should have specified it in the Control Group in the options BTW
I actually couldn't play jigger until I started buying battle fury , note it currently says normal skill but I range between 3.1k and 3.8 k .anyways bf seems to help me a lot . I'll typically farm up a fast yasha once I get bfury then look for a fight if easy to get to then continue farming but always ready to tp or roam into middle / safe lane for a fight .
My typical build is wand ,qb, pms boots first . Then phase , bfury , yasha , sange into what ever is needed . Wand is very nice on juggernaut , I like pms too for early fighting . If getting free farm and not likely to have anyone to fight I skip pms tho . I just feel bfury gives to much is why I build it . Lane hp sustain , jungle sustain , mana sustain all game , faster farming , some decent damage , pushing , wave clear for ultimate .
bf (ability) really works well with bf (item) rushing bf (item) b4 yasha, aghs, etc. but after aquilla, wand is really an 'accepted' build'. I'm not saying this is only use for bf (item), fury also gives alot of pushing power and farm ability. However it is best to get bf (item) b4 20 min mark. Alot of juggs I've seen can't even get bf (item) at 30 min mark, resulting in loss... However it is what works for you, I've seen people rush agh's, manta and still win...
ok last 2 games completely different story. It totally helps when your teammates are wrecking, but going early shit, aquila and drums, wand one game, pms another, manta or s&y, skipping battlefury altogether, it's working a lot better.
Not sure what exact timing for bfury is but fury, phase , wand , pms by 14 mins is done on a lot of games , I know anything after 18 min makes harder game and if you get it after 20 mins you pretty much have to be carried to to win the game .
Dude that's 6705g for those 4 items. You're full of shit no one does all that that quickly in a normal game. Lane creeps average like 42g per (40 for melee, 45 for ranged). You'd need 145 lane creep cs to hit 6100g, minus your 600 starting, which some will be spent on tangoes. You can obviously boost your gpm a little more with towers, kills, jungle creeps, but almost 500gpm at minute 14 is ridiculous.
6705g - 625 starting = 6080
Say two t1s go down in the first 14 mins and you get the max gold from last hitting one, unlikely but I'll give it to you for this example to proove how insane that gpm is.
6080 - 160 for a t1 - 410 max for last hitting a t1 = 5510
I'm going to give you first blood and another kill, that's worth like 450g
5510 - 450 = 5060
I'm going to give you three hard camps bounty, just pretend you have an uber support who stacked the hard camp for you three times and you cleared it with spin or something. Even using the best one the troll camp it's 135 per stack.
5510 - 405 = 5105
You still need roughly 121 lane cs to get 5105g in 14 mins. Creeps spawn every 30 seconds, so in 14 mins you will be able to get 28 waves (the first spawns at 0:00 so really 29 have spawned but the 29th is still in base and has to walk down!), which gives you 112 creeps to hit and 4 siege creeps.
If you manage to cs EVERY SINGLE FUCKING CREEP you will still only have AT MAXIMUM 5276g
This finally fucking gets us to the amount of gold for all those items with 171 left over. But did you see how fucking generous I was in those calculations?
I have you first blood, a t1, a last hit for max gold on a t1, another lane kill, three neutral hard camps and PERFECT cs. You're telling me you are that fucking good?
There is no fucking way you can do this earlier than 14 mins with kills because it takes kills just to get there. Even 18 mins just lane creeps falls drastically short.
It's not a thesis it's just simple math and I'm sick of the blowhards always setting unrealistic benchmarks for people to hit like 100 cs in 10 minutes, it's literally impossible unless someone stack camps for you and you have means to clear them. Or like 8 min radiances on alch and shit which might be possible if you get every bounty rune or something but that's it.
What's hilarious is the guy posting those ridiculous numbers this time is normal skill. Most likely just an honest mistake and overestimation.
For example though I once tried spectre in a passive bot match so no kills, towers, no camp stacking, just cs in lane. It took me about 17 mins to get radiance.
you can't get more than 100 cs minute 10 without serious help. Unless you literally stack the hard camp every single time and it's a 3 creep camp. There's ~70 in lane by minute 10. So you'd need to clear like 10 jungle camps AND not miss a cs in lane. Show me a game where you actually know for a fact you got 100 cs minute 10 and I'll watch the replay. But until them stop talking out of your ass.
dude what the fuck is wrong with you, can u chill or some shit?
why you start getting all mad and aggressive?
like i would waste my time now install dota start a lobby and show this shit to you? yeah, no
blink. if you want to get fury then you want to farm your items. blinks is infinitely times more better with fury when you want to farm than yasha is (unless someone stacked ancients or smth)
if you want to boost your dps and fight ppl you dont get fury first. simple.
Veuillez vous connecter pour publier un commentaire.
isnt blink just as useful for split push? i just feel like blink is too good to pass up on fury jugg, you get to spread the map with split push so you need dagger to capitalize on those easy pick off opportunities
i feel like if you don't die and you have bf yasha you can farm dagger really fast anyway, i think yashas atk speed ms and dmg is > dagger for farm especially for stacks
thats my main point of view, and i do remember going dagger first at least one game now, and that game everyone was feeding but me so i really was pressured to have a faster impact
like in a perfect game i would go manta before dagger cuz i would have it fast.
but in a game where im having ok farm but my team is really struggling, i feel like i have to put up some extra effort to keep the balance knamsayin' so dagger comes to mind early only in hard games
if you can gather up as five and just push with ward you don't really need that dagger, its more for rax push imo.
but if your team is too weak to try to push 5 v 5 then you have to do it solo, and get pickoffs earlier, solo, with dagger
that is ont true
http://devilesk.com/dota2/apps/hero-calculator?id=niA0bKDnfW0q3lNU
883 hp at 10 with no hp items.
I don't really get why battlefury is still good after drums, aquila. By then you might as well go s&y and commit to fighting?
well duh u buy items!? why would u draw conclusions based on no items/bad items/no stats? doesnt make sense
fury is still good in certain games cos you might not be strong enough to just 5 man push or whatever, or maybe they just choose to rat you out so u need to deal with the split push. Also his blade fury effectiveness wanes so sometimes you just hav to farm to capitalize on ur next timing as a late game hero
Jo is treads good on jugg
Also can u coch me agen
I giff select hot pinay waifu
I suck at juggernaut nu cloe how
i personally never get treads on jugg, the one game where i did it i failed super hard i think
treads however is better than phase for farming tho, tread switch + aquila on a low int hero = ungodly amounts of mana + the stat bonus works on quelling unlike raw dmg from phase.
however i think the phase ability is really crucial for jugg simply in terms of the mobility it gives on a hero that 1) has no lockdown 2) is really needed to join early mid game fights (+ms is really strong for early mid game fights as it helps you tp counterfight really well and helps you cut the backlines who cant kite ur ms with force/blinks in the early stage)
also allows you to apply more pressure on the offlaner compared to treads, which i like
just my personal opinion tho.
E: it also depends on a few other factors i feel. Like uhm say if u get a fast phase boots (2-4min) etc and the enemy offlaner, even if hes a ranged, as long as he doesnt have boots he has to play really scared and ur supports can leave u 1v1 and ure gna get free farm. where as if you went fast treads you wont be able to apply even half as much pressure
cus a lot of people rush phase, pms, battlefury, it's not unusual. They play jug like anti mage lol.
i dont think thats optimal most games (im assuming you mean even without small items like aquila and/or wand)
http://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/juggernaut/guides
pretty much every good jugg player goes for small stat items (like aquila at the very least) even when going fury
Jo is phase>drums>bfury with occasional mangoes bad?
You taught me the bfury>blink build a while back how do i maximize this build in 2k? I think w/o bot pushing is such a pain in the ass. Either two of these possibilities: I push a t2 but my team is just so plain dumb for trying a 4v5, they lose but they seem unfazed with the pressure and game quickly becomes a base race xd ofc im gonna lose the gamble i created
I used to hate your build so much cz i die really early/get kited for the love of god of i dunno why
Jug farms good enough anyway without battle fury I think I'm abandoning it. And I love lifesteal on him, going back to that, probably Vlads for regen vs possibility of satabic late.
not really i think wand is really strong for fighting and aquila good for pressuring towers and farming so you shouldnt have mangoes instead of either one of them. also personally i find the claymore/broadsword component fairly useless so i dont save slots for them
you just keep pressuring the safe lane, like right up to the t2s (ofc depends if they have really strong silence/burst/catch/bkb pierce then use ur own judgement of deciding when isit safe to do so), its nice if u have some wards so if you spot a single hero/coming to gank you in different directions you can just blink omnislash then spin and tp out
+ if you are scared then pre cast your healing ward and hide it behide you, that way its more unlikely you get bursted down before being able to spin drums phase run or spin tp whatnot.
if you think its safe you can keep rotating to clear the offlane hard camp + ancients, this is where i like the cross terrain aspect of blink.
i dont see what so complicated about fights, if you think you joining will make a difference then tp and help, if you cant then you settle for a t2. or maybe you get the t2 instead idk im not too sure myself.
@direwolf ok well if u find that build successful then go for it i guess.
I have zero success on jug so who knows lol.
What's the best way to cast ward? People always kill mine so quickly and I hate having to place it. Wish you could select it like a minion with select all groups. I need to customize controls and quick cast it I guess.
i have it saved as "2"
i cast ward behind me, press 2 then send it even further back, and the healing duration lasts for 2+ seconds so you dont need the ward to be super close to u
u can cast it into trees if u wish, but i dont do that cos im scared it get stuck or some shit
i used to have it binded some time ago, but now i just have 1- hero 2-all other units 3- all units
hvaent played meepo or any micro hero for some times too so im lazy to add groups or soemthsing
how do you bind it? It's not units or anything. I just have hero, other units, all units.
@direwolf You have the bind to control group key.. Click the ward and bind to some key by using Ctrl+ the key.. You should have specified it in the Control Group in the options BTW
I actually couldn't play jigger until I started buying battle fury , note it currently says normal skill but I range between 3.1k and 3.8 k .anyways bf seems to help me a lot . I'll typically farm up a fast yasha once I get bfury then look for a fight if easy to get to then continue farming but always ready to tp or roam into middle / safe lane for a fight .
For such a cheap item it seems to power spike jugg a lot. (Yasha ) not sure what spike would be like without the bfury tho.
My typical build is wand ,qb, pms boots first . Then phase , bfury , yasha , sange into what ever is needed . Wand is very nice on juggernaut , I like pms too for early fighting . If getting free farm and not likely to have anyone to fight I skip pms tho . I just feel bfury gives to much is why I build it . Lane hp sustain , jungle sustain , mana sustain all game , faster farming , some decent damage , pushing , wave clear for ultimate .
I really love basher on juggernaut but I think that is mostly just me since I don't see it nearly so often on jigger players
Blink after BF is a big nono for me. You wont be doing enough dmg if omni isnt up. BF>Sny/Manta is always better
does anyone ever build aghs anymore?
Nah' it's just built for fun when stomping so you get extra omnislashes, and more omnislash fun.
bf (ability) really works well with bf (item) rushing bf (item) b4 yasha, aghs, etc. but after aquilla, wand is really an 'accepted' build'. I'm not saying this is only use for bf (item), fury also gives alot of pushing power and farm ability. However it is best to get bf (item) b4 20 min mark. Alot of juggs I've seen can't even get bf (item) at 30 min mark, resulting in loss... However it is what works for you, I've seen people rush agh's, manta and still win...
i found blink first after fury pretty good when very ahead since it enables pick offs you would not otherwise get
if neutral game use judgement i guess
ok last 2 games completely different story. It totally helps when your teammates are wrecking, but going early shit, aquila and drums, wand one game, pms another, manta or s&y, skipping battlefury altogether, it's working a lot better.
Magic wands>Pms>phase>preserveren>drums>b.fury>yasha >conditional
Not sure what exact timing for bfury is but fury, phase , wand , pms by 14 mins is done on a lot of games , I know anything after 18 min makes harder game and if you get it after 20 mins you pretty much have to be carried to to win the game .
I typically shoot for it between 14-18 mins but can do earlier on games with kills or total free farm .
Dude that's 6705g for those 4 items. You're full of shit no one does all that that quickly in a normal game. Lane creeps average like 42g per (40 for melee, 45 for ranged). You'd need 145 lane creep cs to hit 6100g, minus your 600 starting, which some will be spent on tangoes. You can obviously boost your gpm a little more with towers, kills, jungle creeps, but almost 500gpm at minute 14 is ridiculous.
6705g - 625 starting = 6080
Say two t1s go down in the first 14 mins and you get the max gold from last hitting one, unlikely but I'll give it to you for this example to proove how insane that gpm is.
6080 - 160 for a t1 - 410 max for last hitting a t1 = 5510
I'm going to give you first blood and another kill, that's worth like 450g
5510 - 450 = 5060
I'm going to give you three hard camps bounty, just pretend you have an uber support who stacked the hard camp for you three times and you cleared it with spin or something. Even using the best one the troll camp it's 135 per stack.
5510 - 405 = 5105
You still need roughly 121 lane cs to get 5105g in 14 mins. Creeps spawn every 30 seconds, so in 14 mins you will be able to get 28 waves (the first spawns at 0:00 so really 29 have spawned but the 29th is still in base and has to walk down!), which gives you 112 creeps to hit and 4 siege creeps.
If you manage to cs EVERY SINGLE FUCKING CREEP you will still only have AT MAXIMUM 5276g
This finally fucking gets us to the amount of gold for all those items with 171 left over. But did you see how fucking generous I was in those calculations?
I have you first blood, a t1, a last hit for max gold on a t1, another lane kill, three neutral hard camps and PERFECT cs. You're telling me you are that fucking good?
There is no fucking way you can do this earlier than 14 mins with kills because it takes kills just to get there. Even 18 mins just lane creeps falls drastically short.
Look at this match. LOOK AT IT!
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2279677859
604 gpm and 7.3 cs/min
You are telling me that you will average damn near close to that in the first 14 minutes of a game? Bullshit my friend.
Good Thesis man.. Must be Harvard's
ok here goes
if you have ok farm but ur team sux
If you are ahead and can get pickoffs to increase ur advangtaeg
It's not a thesis it's just simple math and I'm sick of the blowhards always setting unrealistic benchmarks for people to hit like 100 cs in 10 minutes, it's literally impossible unless someone stack camps for you and you have means to clear them. Or like 8 min radiances on alch and shit which might be possible if you get every bounty rune or something but that's it.
What's hilarious is the guy posting those ridiculous numbers this time is normal skill. Most likely just an honest mistake and overestimation.
For example though I once tried spectre in a passive bot match so no kills, towers, no camp stacking, just cs in lane. It took me about 17 mins to get radiance.
you can stack yourself the closest hardcamp and clear it with 2 spins actually on jugger
more than 100 cs at 10
just cs in lane ofc u wont be able to get 100
but idk whats ur point anyway i didnt read the long comment, this thread is about whether or not to get dagger right after bf or nah
you can't get more than 100 cs minute 10 without serious help. Unless you literally stack the hard camp every single time and it's a 3 creep camp. There's ~70 in lane by minute 10. So you'd need to clear like 10 jungle camps AND not miss a cs in lane. Show me a game where you actually know for a fact you got 100 cs minute 10 and I'll watch the replay. But until them stop talking out of your ass.
Pms>Wand>phase>preserverence on 9mins - 10mins at my best hahahaha...with 2-3 kills and 1 death or 2...
still waiting for someone to post that 100 cs in 10 mins game but they wont
dude what the fuck is wrong with you, can u chill or some shit?
why you start getting all mad and aggressive?
like i would waste my time now install dota start a lobby and show this shit to you? yeah, no
blink. if you want to get fury then you want to farm your items. blinks is infinitely times more better with fury when you want to farm than yasha is (unless someone stacked ancients or smth)
if you want to boost your dps and fight ppl you dont get fury first. simple.