AM has a much better escape but is also much squishier and gets fucked out of position. I'm not biased in my assessment of Spectre so you people honestly should start doing the same =="
Besides, I don't see where you're going with this argument? Nobody said Spectre was a weak hero...? We've also brought up how many other easy heroes can have a decent skill cap if you actually read above.
And old PL was not too powerful. Re-look his winrate. If he got shutdown he was more useless than a Sniper. He was reworked for the reasons I described because he was a hero that was generally not fun to play with or against and he was utterly one dimensional. Boring to watch as well. Dude he was called the cancer of professional games.
As TripleSteal- said easiest hero is relative to how good a player is.
If you're new to the game Spectre isn't a remotely good beginner hero. Easiest hero would be Witch Doctor.
Doesn't need much farm, can kill neutral creeps, RANGED (this is actually a big deal for a new player imo), can heal himself, just stands still in teamfights, can make a good impact without needing to roam
Easiest hero for a good player is irrelevant because different people are better with different heroes.
So you agree with my point that Spectre is a simple and easy hero to play...? Because while you never said Spectre was complex word for word, you basically bombarded me with information each time on how it isn't as abc123 and examples of other heroes that are easy and therefore implying Spectre is not a simple nor easy hero to master.
I'm so sorry for the misunderstanding.
@MFW, that point has been discussed several times and has already been solved. Btw, new players and we're talking <2k benefit from melee heroes not range because they don't use the range advantage and lose out later on cuz they dk positioning.
How about this you have a friend new to game what hero do you teach them that they most likely will do well on.
Me personally I think bs even though a lot of you will say a support type. The small chance my friend has to lane doesn't frighten me and the small chance he gets harassed in jungle also doesn't.
He will basically be playing world of Warcraft against level 1 boars in jungle except no downtime at all.
Spectre isn't the easiest hero to play. Once you've played a lot of games with the hero, using it would be easier since its like practicing your muscle memory. You know how the hero functions, its strengths and weaknesses. You know what you're objective is when the game starts and you know how to adjust your play style according to how the game progresses.
I don't even know why I've been entertaining the argument for so long. Net debates are fun,.
Spectre is without a doubt a simple hero (double passives, 1 non targeted global, 1 far range nuke) and has a kit that is lenient in late game and useful for surviving early. To make up for this, she lacks burst damage and the ability to flash farm early on. She might not be THE easiest hero in the game since everyone wants to use a different metric (comparing support to carry) but it is safe to say she counts in the tier of 'easy'.
At the end of the day this argument was spurred by the thread where you humblebragged your position as 'nothing' only to get really aggravated by me when I basically went "YEAH, IT'S NO BIGGY". Btw since you're constantly using hard to compare metrics (bringing entirely different roles), try to compare Spectre to ONLY other carries if you want to bring up other heroes. Off my head I can only think of Wraith King and Spiritbreaker, both acknowledged as easy heroes.
No. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/114446900 This is my flat 3k friend and he has single-handedly proven to me that anyone at his level and below cannot handle amplifying damage to themselves at any point of the game at all. Bloodseeker is a big no no for new players. (He is quite the opposite of new...)
If anything, you can lie to them and tell them Lich is not a support so they pick the hero and they can and will learn and possibly carry their games, because Lich can do that in the lower brackets.
viper since he's ranged, semi-tanky, easy to dominate lane with not very mana-dependent and if you dont count orbwalking he also only has one active skill.
Also from his front page of most played he still wins 50% and that's his hero with highest KDA. In fact your friend only has one game on bs in last 6 months in that game he maxed blood right first.....
I would go further into it but if I had to teach a monkey to play dota get kills and typed "wrekted" it would be bs.
Quite a few of your guys' arguments are taking out the context of DOTA itself. IT's like you're saying, if these heroes were played perfectly, who is the easiest hero. As if that's not even a part of the question itself..
1) "Her passives help her be tanky and deal dmg easily. she's easy." Okay, and wraith king gets a second life... Like your point makes absolutely no sense in context. EVERY CARRY has really great abilities. OP says what hero has 2 passives. FV has 2. AM has 2. BB has 3. LC somewhat has 2. Wk has 3, technically. And none of the above heroes are in any way easy. I think you're making a poor assumption; cast-able abilities, esp on carries, usually equate to more lane presence and/or farm capability. Leshrac is WAY more 'easy' than any carry with passives in those areas (a huge part of any carry's priority)
2) Specifically to Spectre's passives, they do nothing to help her in lane or in jungle, as opposed to almost any other carry's passives. She is one of the slowest farmers in the game and RELIES on killing the enemy. In what world does having to be More confrontational Earlier in the game, as a hard carry without as much farm, mean that "oh this must be easy." Spectre is not very meaningful in those early game team fights, but relies heavily on her team to make good initiations and trust them to use haunt if they advise it. Your responsibility to be aware of your team, the fights, the progress of the opponents, your team's positioning, and all this while trying to cs, is necessary to win those early fights because, contrary to the OP, you cant just sit and right click on a team fight and automatically win. And IF you lose or die often in those early fights, count yourself as jack shit for the rest of the game.
IMO Spectre is one of the hardest carries to play with.
I didn't even think about it it, but considering that most players are bad at DotA realistically the easiest heroes are the same heroes with high winrates
aka easiest heroes are
1. omni
2. abaddon
3. ursa
4. spectre
so spectre is the fourth easiest hero for the average player lol
Yea, every carry has his abilities and passives but many of them gets countered. well , silver edge counters all of them so I will take it out of consideration. WK ulti gets countered by mana drain. Anti mage is a carry with no steroids, just the low B.A.T. Mana break in lategame is often sub-optimal and actually useless if they get bkb while desolate is pure. As well, yes it is a counter to heavy nukers, big mana pools etc but desolate is good against anyone. Spell shield is basically useless against heavy pure/physical lineups while dispersion its good vs all. Mana void again , if you are against heroes which dont have a big mana pool it does barely anything in fights. So one ability , blink, make the hero strong. Haunt is good vs all type of heroes especially fragiles, at any point of the game and is just a press-without-thinking-about-it ability most of the time.
So in terms of his abilities , spectre is all around a easy hero because her abilities doesnt really get countered by heroes picks for example.
Yes , yu need to be good at farming for spectre especially he doesnt have any flash farm . but that doesnt make her harder to play just because she cant farm fast, she basically does the same thing, right click creeps whem they are about to die. And to do that you have to rely on your team to make space for you? While an AM can make space for him himself, so that adds a mechanic to the hero.
LC is purely based on snowballing and if she doesnt get that duels off she will be meh to irrelevant. FV needs to place chrono good , while spectre just press R. Medusa has to time it right as well.
So @jungle people you basically go on the idea that if you farm slowly you are hard to play, but no, thats only a mechanic. It doesnt adds anything "hard" to the hero, he just does what he was doing in the laning stage, but now his team is fighting. While an AM for example has to find farm himself most of the time, tread switch, idk how its called but that thing when you equalize neutrals HP so you kill them at the same time when you have battlefury, finding that good target for mana void, landing he mana void, know when to blink in/out, while Spectre just sits and tank dmage. LC has to know when to duel, who to duel, medusa has to perfectly time ult, but that most of the time needa cooperation from the team if you want to stone someone, FV has to trap enemies in chrono but keep his teammates outside of it as much as possible, PL has to dodge spells, another complex mechanic.
I dont say that spectre is good for newbies, she isnt, but mechanically speaking she is simple than many other carries
That's a good point, 1 that she's not easily countered and 2 that she's simple mechanically. Better terms to understand.
With that said. I still think the point we're debating is what's easier. To me the hardest part about playing a carry is about farming and it's relationship to being proactive in the early game, while also being able to defend against the opponents early game.
In this aspect, I get that her abilities transition more to the late game so it's easier once it gets to that point. But for me it's all about the early game and getting off to a good start with farm for most carries aside from maybe medusa who seems to always find her away int the game come minute 25.
With all of that said, this may or may not be what everyone else finds challenging about carries. But AM comparison for one is a little too perfect to avoid, he is basically told to afk jungle/farm, split off, and just don't feed.. However, Spectre is the complete opposite on the spectrum of hard carries. You are expected to fight early and need to in order to snowball at all or have a chance to get core items at a reasonable time, because your creep farm rate is usually shit.
IMO that's what makes her chalenging. I think you still think about all the mechanics to farming, bcuz you are a hard carry, you need farm. But more so than any other hard carry that I can speak of, you need to win the early game personally as Spectre (maybe not as the team in all situations).
I do agreee her passives and haunt work well transitioning into the mid to late game. I think people however underestimate the ability to provide a good Haunt early when you need it. You say all you need to do is press R (which is what anyone uses to argue against any hero), not to be overly dramatic but it's definitely more than that.
@Bedazzle "try to compare Spectre to ONLY other carries if you want to bring up other heroes. Off my head I can only think of Wraith King and Spiritbreaker, both acknowledged as easy heroes."
SB ain't carry bro.
Also, Spectre might not be mechanically hard to play like other heroes that have to aim their skills. That however, doesn't mean that she's easy play.
For example, knowing when to ult, if you ult at the wrong time you can easily lose the teamfight.
Are we seriously having discussions that spectre is easy still? Please just stop you sound retarded this isn't a battle of who has the least amount of buttons to push its a battle of which hero a monkey could play and win at.
^ well thats is not right all the time. People refers to heroes which are in the meta as that ez heroes which everyone can play: for example bloodseeker, but before this patch nobody really thought about him, so the opinion of people on "eazy heroes" change with the meta. Of course there will be always "cheap" heroes as slark for example, but thats heroes that benefit from lack of coordination of the enemy team(which also make him a good pubstomper), hence that doesnt happen most of the time in pro scene, we dont see him as much as in pubs.
Veuillez vous connecter pour publier un commentaire.
AM has a much better escape but is also much squishier and gets fucked out of position. I'm not biased in my assessment of Spectre so you people honestly should start doing the same =="
Besides, I don't see where you're going with this argument? Nobody said Spectre was a weak hero...? We've also brought up how many other easy heroes can have a decent skill cap if you actually read above.
And old PL was not too powerful. Re-look his winrate. If he got shutdown he was more useless than a Sniper. He was reworked for the reasons I described because he was a hero that was generally not fun to play with or against and he was utterly one dimensional. Boring to watch as well. Dude he was called the cancer of professional games.
Lol im driving and will reply to you later.
Im just laughing at the way you form your logic. Clearly you must be in your 20s below age bracket to handle such a formal style of discussion.
#1 did i write in any part of my previous post that i claimed that im making it sound that spectre is a complex hero to play?
Sheesh. Waste of time :p
As TripleSteal- said easiest hero is relative to how good a player is.
If you're new to the game Spectre isn't a remotely good beginner hero. Easiest hero would be Witch Doctor.
Doesn't need much farm, can kill neutral creeps, RANGED (this is actually a big deal for a new player imo), can heal himself, just stands still in teamfights, can make a good impact without needing to roam
Easiest hero for a good player is irrelevant because different people are better with different heroes.
So you agree with my point that Spectre is a simple and easy hero to play...? Because while you never said Spectre was complex word for word, you basically bombarded me with information each time on how it isn't as abc123 and examples of other heroes that are easy and therefore implying Spectre is not a simple nor easy hero to master.
I'm so sorry for the misunderstanding.
@MFW, that point has been discussed several times and has already been solved. Btw, new players and we're talking <2k benefit from melee heroes not range because they don't use the range advantage and lose out later on cuz they dk positioning.
How about this you have a friend new to game what hero do you teach them that they most likely will do well on.
Me personally I think bs even though a lot of you will say a support type. The small chance my friend has to lane doesn't frighten me and the small chance he gets harassed in jungle also doesn't.
He will basically be playing world of Warcraft against level 1 boars in jungle except no downtime at all.
Spectre isn't the easiest hero to play. Once you've played a lot of games with the hero, using it would be easier since its like practicing your muscle memory. You know how the hero functions, its strengths and weaknesses. You know what you're objective is when the game starts and you know how to adjust your play style according to how the game progresses.
I don't even know why I've been entertaining the argument for so long. Net debates are fun,.
Spectre is without a doubt a simple hero (double passives, 1 non targeted global, 1 far range nuke) and has a kit that is lenient in late game and useful for surviving early. To make up for this, she lacks burst damage and the ability to flash farm early on. She might not be THE easiest hero in the game since everyone wants to use a different metric (comparing support to carry) but it is safe to say she counts in the tier of 'easy'.
At the end of the day this argument was spurred by the thread where you humblebragged your position as 'nothing' only to get really aggravated by me when I basically went "YEAH, IT'S NO BIGGY". Btw since you're constantly using hard to compare metrics (bringing entirely different roles), try to compare Spectre to ONLY other carries if you want to bring up other heroes. Off my head I can only think of Wraith King and Spiritbreaker, both acknowledged as easy heroes.
Add viper to that list (two skill hero etc etc)
If Viper went to 300 ms, all midlaners would cry because he would be picked all the time.
@Last Picking Earth Spirit dude
No. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/114446900 This is my flat 3k friend and he has single-handedly proven to me that anyone at his level and below cannot handle amplifying damage to themselves at any point of the game at all. Bloodseeker is a big no no for new players. (He is quite the opposite of new...)
If anything, you can lie to them and tell them Lich is not a support so they pick the hero and they can and will learn and possibly carry their games, because Lich can do that in the lower brackets.
viper since he's ranged, semi-tanky, easy to dominate lane with not very mana-dependent and if you dont count orbwalking he also only has one active skill.
^---he has one game on bs in 6.84c
Also from his front page of most played he still wins 50% and that's his hero with highest KDA. In fact your friend only has one game on bs in last 6 months in that game he maxed blood right first.....
I would go further into it but if I had to teach a monkey to play dota get kills and typed "wrekted" it would be bs.
Spectre is by far not the easiest hero lol
I swear, this guy is just low VHS.
Ayyy, you obviously haven't seen his feeding skills in action. Stats be damned :D
In what world is spectre an easy hero??
Quite a few of your guys' arguments are taking out the context of DOTA itself. IT's like you're saying, if these heroes were played perfectly, who is the easiest hero. As if that's not even a part of the question itself..
1) "Her passives help her be tanky and deal dmg easily. she's easy." Okay, and wraith king gets a second life... Like your point makes absolutely no sense in context. EVERY CARRY has really great abilities. OP says what hero has 2 passives. FV has 2. AM has 2. BB has 3. LC somewhat has 2. Wk has 3, technically. And none of the above heroes are in any way easy. I think you're making a poor assumption; cast-able abilities, esp on carries, usually equate to more lane presence and/or farm capability. Leshrac is WAY more 'easy' than any carry with passives in those areas (a huge part of any carry's priority)
2) Specifically to Spectre's passives, they do nothing to help her in lane or in jungle, as opposed to almost any other carry's passives. She is one of the slowest farmers in the game and RELIES on killing the enemy. In what world does having to be More confrontational Earlier in the game, as a hard carry without as much farm, mean that "oh this must be easy." Spectre is not very meaningful in those early game team fights, but relies heavily on her team to make good initiations and trust them to use haunt if they advise it. Your responsibility to be aware of your team, the fights, the progress of the opponents, your team's positioning, and all this while trying to cs, is necessary to win those early fights because, contrary to the OP, you cant just sit and right click on a team fight and automatically win. And IF you lose or die often in those early fights, count yourself as jack shit for the rest of the game.
IMO Spectre is one of the hardest carries to play with.
Also, change your heading to: "Spectre is the easiest hero", bcuz you're not really asking, are you
I didn't even think about it it, but considering that most players are bad at DotA realistically the easiest heroes are the same heroes with high winrates
aka easiest heroes are
1. omni
2. abaddon
3. ursa
4. spectre
so spectre is the fourth easiest hero for the average player lol
Yea, every carry has his abilities and passives but many of them gets countered. well , silver edge counters all of them so I will take it out of consideration. WK ulti gets countered by mana drain. Anti mage is a carry with no steroids, just the low B.A.T. Mana break in lategame is often sub-optimal and actually useless if they get bkb while desolate is pure. As well, yes it is a counter to heavy nukers, big mana pools etc but desolate is good against anyone. Spell shield is basically useless against heavy pure/physical lineups while dispersion its good vs all. Mana void again , if you are against heroes which dont have a big mana pool it does barely anything in fights. So one ability , blink, make the hero strong. Haunt is good vs all type of heroes especially fragiles, at any point of the game and is just a press-without-thinking-about-it ability most of the time.
So in terms of his abilities , spectre is all around a easy hero because her abilities doesnt really get countered by heroes picks for example.
Yes , yu need to be good at farming for spectre especially he doesnt have any flash farm . but that doesnt make her harder to play just because she cant farm fast, she basically does the same thing, right click creeps whem they are about to die. And to do that you have to rely on your team to make space for you? While an AM can make space for him himself, so that adds a mechanic to the hero.
LC is purely based on snowballing and if she doesnt get that duels off she will be meh to irrelevant. FV needs to place chrono good , while spectre just press R. Medusa has to time it right as well.
So @jungle people you basically go on the idea that if you farm slowly you are hard to play, but no, thats only a mechanic. It doesnt adds anything "hard" to the hero, he just does what he was doing in the laning stage, but now his team is fighting. While an AM for example has to find farm himself most of the time, tread switch, idk how its called but that thing when you equalize neutrals HP so you kill them at the same time when you have battlefury, finding that good target for mana void, landing he mana void, know when to blink in/out, while Spectre just sits and tank dmage. LC has to know when to duel, who to duel, medusa has to perfectly time ult, but that most of the time needa cooperation from the team if you want to stone someone, FV has to trap enemies in chrono but keep his teammates outside of it as much as possible, PL has to dodge spells, another complex mechanic.
I dont say that spectre is good for newbies, she isnt, but mechanically speaking she is simple than many other carries
That's a good point, 1 that she's not easily countered and 2 that she's simple mechanically. Better terms to understand.
With that said. I still think the point we're debating is what's easier. To me the hardest part about playing a carry is about farming and it's relationship to being proactive in the early game, while also being able to defend against the opponents early game.
In this aspect, I get that her abilities transition more to the late game so it's easier once it gets to that point. But for me it's all about the early game and getting off to a good start with farm for most carries aside from maybe medusa who seems to always find her away int the game come minute 25.
With all of that said, this may or may not be what everyone else finds challenging about carries. But AM comparison for one is a little too perfect to avoid, he is basically told to afk jungle/farm, split off, and just don't feed.. However, Spectre is the complete opposite on the spectrum of hard carries. You are expected to fight early and need to in order to snowball at all or have a chance to get core items at a reasonable time, because your creep farm rate is usually shit.
IMO that's what makes her chalenging. I think you still think about all the mechanics to farming, bcuz you are a hard carry, you need farm. But more so than any other hard carry that I can speak of, you need to win the early game personally as Spectre (maybe not as the team in all situations).
I do agreee her passives and haunt work well transitioning into the mid to late game. I think people however underestimate the ability to provide a good Haunt early when you need it. You say all you need to do is press R (which is what anyone uses to argue against any hero), not to be overly dramatic but it's definitely more than that.
@Bedazzle "try to compare Spectre to ONLY other carries if you want to bring up other heroes. Off my head I can only think of Wraith King and Spiritbreaker, both acknowledged as easy heroes."
SB ain't carry bro.
Also, Spectre might not be mechanically hard to play like other heroes that have to aim their skills. That however, doesn't mean that she's easy play.
For example, knowing when to ult, if you ult at the wrong time you can easily lose the teamfight.
Are we seriously having discussions that spectre is easy still? Please just stop you sound retarded this isn't a battle of who has the least amount of buttons to push its a battle of which hero a monkey could play and win at.
^ well thats is not right all the time. People refers to heroes which are in the meta as that ez heroes which everyone can play: for example bloodseeker, but before this patch nobody really thought about him, so the opinion of people on "eazy heroes" change with the meta. Of course there will be always "cheap" heroes as slark for example, but thats heroes that benefit from lack of coordination of the enemy team(which also make him a good pubstomper), hence that doesnt happen most of the time in pro scene, we dont see him as much as in pubs.