that's pretty low gpm for someone who thinks "we were close to winning the game but storm..."
anyways i'm so glad i don't play safelane carry in 80% of my games now cuz i know some retard will sit behind me and leech exp/be useless
i don't bother with most of these "how could i have won this game, my team feed???" posts cuz nobody can properly explain how they would've played differently. you either know how to do it or u don't, there's no "explaining" here...not to mention decisions are sometimes made on a split-second and there's nothing you can do if your reaction time is too slow
for all i know i would've picked a different hero (probably luna or wk) and taken roshan at the first opportunity, that game looks easily winnable and someone who's 6k would win it without problem
just via DB link, these are my comments:
1. I would have positioned an aggressive tri-lane against an opposing melee carry.
2. When laning against an offlane Undying, put 1 level of homing missile @ level 2.
3. Depending on how successful the laning phase is, I would either build Drums or straight S&Y.
4. Your lineup provides more damage output from early to mid game. Continuous tower pushes should be the mid-game objective.
5. If either your or SF played farm during the mid game, Storm taking over is justifiable.
6. You should have instructed SF to build mekansm.
7. Carrying with Gyrocopter has different play styles, but he's almost always good with big teamfights. The earlier the better. You don't carry with Gyro by just AFK farming, 4 protect 1. As soon as you get Drums + Dominator or Sange + Drums. Your team should push the issue.
kitrak the dota gamer
Yes treads seems like better opinion for sure. Yeah I had aquila and magic wand. Sange and yasha is good in early mid game but than I ll have later bkb so I thought maybe better fast bkb I had it 18-19 min. Without bkb dunno how will I survive any fight, storm will just jump me and sven stuns me and I m dead. They also have Undying and stuff so I don`t know really hard game for gyro, if we had something like beastmaster to stun Sven maybe than but this way was just no answer to sven bkb I think. Still maybe S&y bkb better than bkb mkb probably I ll survive a bit longer but dunno who will deal the damage Sf dies as well very fast even faster than me.
FroZeN Wk vs Undying/treant offlane? Seriosly? Game will be without any chance if I picked wk there because I will have 20 cs 10 min. or something and with gyro at least I could farm. If u don`t think so come 2v2 lobby I pick undy my friend treant and u play wk with kotl support.
Secret.WeLostBoys Yeah I can coach other people but that doesn`t mean I know everything about dota 2. Sumail is one of the best players in the world and still I m 100% sure Fear and PPD for example coach him alot and learning him stuff about game from their perspective. If someone is good doesn`t mean he knows everything and can`t learn more. Even Lebron James or Ronaldo using tips from the coach every game.
phase boot were the boot to go there. You HAVE to kite sven.
Eb instead of mkb would have worked better. Manta could have been good against tree.
Leave that God damn barage rocket lvl1, who are you going to scare ? the bkb sven that 2 shot you? the storm that zip in and out?
1 of missile is enough also, since there's no zooning, and they are only 2 ranged to get rid of the missile.
Stat stats statS to tank !
I haven't seen the replay yet - will watch later. But I see you got HotD so I wonder, how many stacks of ancients did you actually make with that? Lifesteal is very weak on gyro because his power comes from magic + flak. Very little of his damage counts for lifesteal so getting it will only be good if you use the dominated creep well. Another possibility would be to keep a centaur with you so it can stun storm if he jumps on you. Or even after sven has bkb, keep a troll with you and net sven so you can kite him.
It's only a one second net, but sven may do 1000 dmg in one second. That could certainly win a fight. You have an ES and a Clock who are presumably 5kish players. One second from your troll's net is probably enough time for them to make a play and save you if you get jumped. Both can block sven despite bkb with fissure or cogs.
matrice good point for stats but I didn`t thought about that. If I didn`t maxed rocket barage how will I win lane vs Undying than we won`t be able to kill him and my lane at some point will be lost and es and kotl will feed even more?
Relentless If u are forced to farm jungle and stuff you always need lifesteal. Watch any pro matches with gyro they all go dominator and they were always going even 1-2 years ago meta for items for gyro was almost same maybe without s&y only.Yes I stacked they also warded our ancients so it wasn`t full effective. Gyro without lifesteal is pretty weak bro almost in any scenario.
You are incorrect about Gryo being weak without lifesteal. Your healing from HotD, is trivial until you have a major damage item...really until you have two major damage items.
Your healing from lifesteal is far less effective than carrying around salves, and burst healing when you need it. You could have an item that gives you some real power instead...like a yasha. Each item is balanced for what it does. HotD is not worth completing for just the lifesteal. If you don't use an active item, then getting a passive item is going to be a better option for the cost.
Let me give you hard data so you know what I mean. Based on the combat log, in the first minute of laning after you get HotD you were healed for a total of 32 hp. During that time you could have gotten a creep and used it to attack putting much more pressure on the lane. You could have stacked a camp. But instead you just healed for 32 hp with your 1850 gold item.
But I was happy to see you did get a creep about 100 seconds after getting HotD. However, not using it right away means your farm could have been 3 creep waves faster. It's not exactly the same, but the missed opportunity of what the dominated creep could have done is like you missed 12 lasthits. Doing much more was possible. The ripper missed two ancient stacks it could have done if you immediately sent a creep. If you look at it that way, you lost about 300 gold waiting.
Next you forget to stack the camp twice. Now you are down 4 ancient stacks from what was possible. If you actually had a 5 stack camp at 12 minutes you should have been going to farm it. Imagine the massive farm you would have had if you executed this correctly. No one tries to ward block it yet.
Next you miss the 13 min stack. But you get the 14 min one, miss the 15 min one again - so you are up to 3 camps. when you farm it at 15:30ish. You could have had 8 stacks there (not all at once of course) if you actually used HotD to full potential. No one has even thought about stopping your ancient farming yet.
After you clear it... at 16 min, enemy supports finally notice and smoke in. You were almost late enough taking it that they found and ganked you. They kill your creep, but do not block the camp.
You don't send a new creep for 3 more minutes - missing 3 more potential stacks. When you do, you time it wrong, then miss micro the creep so it dies.
After this you don't get a new creep for 9 minutes. This creep gets one stack, and missed one. ES does a stack for you however. You clear the 3 stack at 29 minutes.
At this point the camp has never been blocked, but HotD has only succeeded in stacking 3 times of a potential 20. If the timing is too hard to get right past a 3 or 4 stack, send your creep to a big camp. There is a lot more farm acceleration you could be doing with this item. Maybe practicing in some bot games would help until it becomes habit to do the stack.
You get one more stack done in the last 20 minutes of the game. I think if you had used HotD well, you could have had an additional 5k or 6k gold item and that probably would have won the game.
The camp was never blocked, and only checked twice all game by enemy supports. Both checks nothing was there.
Now, in case you thought that lifesteal was doing work let me lay it out for you very clearly. In the final fight, your final death - HotD healed you for a massive, ENOURMOUS, 63 hp total!!! in that fight. It sucks. Getting a gauntlet of strength would have done more to keep you alive and only cost 150 gold... Of course the armor helped a lot more than the tiny active heals...but you can get a platemail for much less than 1850 gold.
Lifesteal really doesn't do much at all if you don't have seriously high dps. So get two major damage items first. If you are going to get HotD to stack - that's great but you have to actually do the stacks.
you can always have casual hotd on gyro and it will never be a wrong choice.
and heals from mask and salve are not comparable. you don't want to sit on lane with hard carry waiting to use salve at optimal moment. you want to be full or close to full at all times.
Xan, the point is you will be close to full at all times if you merely kept tangoes and used one whenever you were down 150 hp from max hp. The HotD nearly always was healing him for zero on each attack because he was always max health anyway. He did not require healing at all unless someone ganked, casting a bunch of spells and it such a situation HotD would do close to zero, if not exactly zero to heal him... but a quick juke and a salve could save him.
Liftsteal is terrible for healing early to mid game on almost all heroes. I know lots of people believe otherwise - they are all completely wrong. Heroes that can actually heal from lifesteal have passive or active abilities that are 30% + heals... not a meager 10 to 15%, and they also need serious dmg before it does much. This is why even legion commander, and lifestealer need damage block and some real dps, and armor before they can jungle. And they have lifesteal double and triple that of HotD.
Bogi you want to win games like that in the future? Then you got to learn how to lane better, use correct skill builds and mostly farm better on gyro. Few days back i was watching a 5.6k guy play safelane gyro vs undying and he averaged more then 10 cs/min at min 20. He rotated from lane to woods like a baws, stacked everything, used his ult to farm while double/triple pulling every camp together (he was radiant tho where gyro is a bit better) and he ended the game at min 35 with 450lh+ and loads of kills. If i had replay, i would have post it here but sadly i dont.
Didnt even know how good of a farmer gyro actually can be. Well, i do know now, so i know i cant play it for shit and neither do you.
Relentless I know I missed alot of stacking it was because I was focused on other things game was very hard in my perspective and I was thinking about 100 things but yeah I was a bit slow to use maximum of it. Helm of dominator/mask of madness/or morbid mask are always good early game dunno what u talking about `you was only healed 32hp` and stuff its about hp regen as well as armor yeah I was full all the time because I heal vs creps in jungle otherwise if I try to farm troll/wolfes or any other jungle creeps with phase aquila I ll fast need a salve or tangoes which is just bad opinion.
Bogi, remember reality first. Remember that I actually do know what I am talking about despite forum trolls. So think carefully about what I actually write, not what people (or you) imagine I wrote because they cannot or choose not to read.
HotD and MoM are great items. There are lots of situations where they are the best choice for a carry early.... but that is NOT for the lifesteal. It is for the active abilities and what you can do with those actives. If you don't make full use of the active abilities these items actually suck. They heal for almost zero until you have massive damage. Don't get them or use them thinking you are going to be healing. You won't. If you don't use the actives well, then its better not to get them at all. If you were too low skill to use the active, then you should get passive items. If you are actually talented (which you are) then get the active items and actually use them correctly.
If you actually find you need healing, it's not for lack of lifesteal - its because EITHER your play is unessicarrily taking extra damage with poor positioning, OR its because you are getting tons of harassment from long range spells and should be itemizing to (1st) block it with magic resistance and 2nd healing it will actually healing items not lifesteal - OR tons of harassment from long range physical dmg and should be itemizing to (1st) block it with stout/pms and 2nd heal with healing items. If you are taking harassment that will only go on for the laning stage heal it with consumables. its a far more efficient use of gold.
Do not get sucky early lifesteal for 2k gold and think you are dealing with healing minor damage correctly.
If you want to fight early, you get drums, you get mech, you do not get lifesteal. Mask of Madness is for farming early - for the move and attack speed activated when the time is right... it happens to lifesteal but that's really not important. The movespeed can save you or get a kill you are chasing, the lifesteal does not. HotD is for farming early by stacking camps (or if you are really good for actually ganking early with creep abilities) - it happens to grant lifesteal, but that's trivial. Anyone who truly wants to understand why you should get these items and how to use them will realize the lifesteal is NOT important early. If you don't get it...watch your own replay using these items and read the combat log and see yourself healing almost zero while you lane, almost zero while you jungle, and literally zero every time you really need to heal in a fight (ie zero healing when you are about to die).
Learn, then that nub pubs hope for lifesteal, while actual pros either (1) count on skilled supports to heal them and/or (2) carry around consumable regen and use it appropriately (bottle is best, but tangoes and salves have their place - mangoes are another very pro item). Next time you get low in a fight see how long it takes to lifesteal your way back from a 400 hp drop so you could re-engage, then consider how amazing it would have been if you juked into fog and salved 400 hp back in seconds. Which one is the nub pub play? Which one is the pro play? Its not hard to tell the difference really.
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I saw on ti5 eu qual alot of Pl players playing Treads aquila and lifesteal mask only for farming and healing himself, they dont buy pms or healing salves
QUOTE : RELENTLESS
HotD and MoM are great items. There are lots of situations where they are the best choice for a carry early.... but that is NOT for the lifesteal. "
WaT, the lifesteal is crucial, because you regen like 20hp+ a hit, and this adds up really hard when you are constantly hitting.
I didn't read further, but you're bullshitting a lot
You can choose not to think. I can't force you to think, or force you to read. Reality is you get almost no healing from lifesteal early. You can check it yourself, or believe me or don't - it will remain true no matter what you do or think.
In a pro game, competent supports will do that minor healing for you. In a pub you may have to do it yourself.
I didn't see the game, but I would buy:
phase aquila bracer hotd sange into sny dependending on how the game was going.
Phase is definetly not the wrong choice. PT is not gonna provide you ability to manfight Sven. You need (your team) to lock Sven down to spray barrage into his face.
Matrice and I have totally different playstyles, although I don't think maxing Rocket Barrage over stats is a wrong decision. It's useful for a lot of things, but it all depends on how to play it.
It's not like you max this ability just to manfight a carry that might have bkb long after when you should've gotten use of it.
quoting myself;
"because you regen like 20hp+ a hit, and this adds up really hard"
It gives you the sustainability to lane and jungle without having to go base constantly. What do you mean? Doesn't do anything for you early?
You don't fucking buy hotd at min2. You buy it after your early cores that usually consist of Phase and Aquila.
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Are you telling me supports should follow you around at 8min+ wherever you go to provide you a tango or salve to not be in kill-range from other solo heroes? :D:D:D:D:
No I'm telling you that you don't lose significant amounts of hp vs creeps. And when you do lose significant amounts of hp, you are usually lifestealing zero, because you are not doing attacks. And if you are doing attacks, its not enough to keep you alive.
Just look at a combat log for weak right clickers like a gyro with treads/aquilla whatever midgame stuff. You will see it heal for 30 dmg a few times, then you die. Or, you are already full and it doesn't heal. Those are the real situations you will be in... the "i'm half health, but I'm still yoloing in and using right clicks to heal my way through the fight" that situation is not real until you have deadulus and satantic.
So what really happens is, lifesteal heals you for almost zero through the laning and mid-game. You would get a lot more done with a yasha, than a HotD if you don't use the creep. And if you don't use MoM well, its better not to get it at all.
Look if you can't understand the technical point - just read the conclusion. Get active items to use them actively. Don't get active items and treat them like passive items because they are not worth it. If you are not going to use active items, then passive items function better as passive items.
I don't get your points
Are you telling me that if you don't use the items you buy they are not worth buying? THEN WHY HTE UFK WOULD U BUY THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE 
I honestly don't care about low trash players that buys Mask of Madness and only use them in fights, or doesn't use them in general efficeintly, but you can't write as you assume everyones reading has no clue what's happening.
Like the way you're writing is as if you're talking to people at your own rating AKA 2k mmr that has noe lcue what the ufks going on.
hotd doesn't only give you lifesteal, it gives you armor and damage, aswell as lifesteal. If you die to fucking creeps then you're a fucking moron, doesn't matter if the lifesteal you get from hotd is relevant or not. - Cause you're kiting the creeps. You don't just stand there taking hit after hit.
I have no clue wat you're saying
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If you wanna discuss how useful and viable certain items are get on fuckig teamspeak with me so I can understand your points, cause it feels like I'm fucking stupid who cant understand what you're sayin
Well at least you realize that you don't get it.
People often get these items and use them badly. In this game Bogi, used HotD badly like most everyone does all the time in pubs.
I'm pointing this out. Maybe you unlike the 10 million players who use HotD to only lifesteal are good at it. It's not likely, but who knows maybe you actually use the creep.
If you don't, my point is simple. HotD is not worth getting just to lifesteal. So the right choices are either get a passive item, or actually use the active item. It's not complicated.
it's a matter of how the game is going, i don't think either of you is 100% correct
u got that extra 3-4 minutes of space to stack ancients and farm them? hotd is fantastic, do it then
if you find that you need to fight constantly then don't get it, just get drums + sny after aquila/wand (or drums + bkb if they have too much magic damage) and go fight
when i watch beesa play a hero like terrorblade (no natural regen), he just jungles with pms + treads + yasha, he doesn't get any sort of item dedicated for restoring his hp while he tanks neutral hits. unless you're getting heavily harassed in lane (which shouldn't happen in most games) there's absolutely no reason to just get lifesteal to offset that
for gyro all u need to do is stack a big camp (ask a support or do it yourself) and use your ulti to clear it, there's no reason for u to take massive amounts of dmg while jungling unless you're planning on afking there for a long time, which probably means you're losing the game anyways
Oh now I got your point. I actually didn't even bother reading all you wrote cause I'm tired, my bad.
I don't agree it's not worth buying even if you don't use the active on HotD, cause armor+dmg+lifesteal is all crucial, although it's not optimal usage at all.
Whenever I have HotD I either use it for splitpush, farm more in lanes using their actives (e.g. Bird tornado, or just regular lasthitting) or I use it for vision at least.
I've been kinda bad at using it for stacking lately, but it might've been an outcome of me using it for lanefarm and scouting or even ganking, which might not always be optimal.
The lifesteal and armor gets better the later in the game it gets. This is why I advise getting it after two major dmg items, if you are not going to use the active. Many players fail to dominate creeps at all, even those who do usually use it to a far lower effectiveness than they imagine.
Late game, after you have lots of damage, and the enemy does too - then the armor and lifesteal are good by themselves. Really +5 armor is strong all game long, but chainmail does that for 550 while helm costs 1850. The passive items are balanced to be much better than the actives... IF you don't use the actives. So for weaker players (ie almost all dota players) the passive items are better. For skilled players (ie typical forum posters) the active items are stronger but even most 5ks don't use their items to full effectiveness.
I started looking at this because I've played with Bogi 100+ games and I know he doesn't use his HotD very well. Most people forget and do nothing with it almost all game long. As for myself, I get it later if I might go satanic because I know I'm not capable of using the micro effectively anyway.
Split push is about the best thing I do with dominated creeps. I try to stack, but I almost always forget until its too late. In the replay Bogi thought to micro his creep a couple seconds late 5 times. He was trying to remember... but didn't. I also like to use dominated creeps to keep tabs on roshan - another reason to get it later in the game. Watching for rosh attempts and respawns takes no micro skill at all.
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Frozen is absolutely right. Jungling you should take almost no damage at all. And that is why if you watch the combat log you will see that your HotD does almost no healing. Its because you didn't take any damage to heal it. If you were a zero armor hero with no dmg block, maybe you would need lifesteal to jungle. But carries who jungle don't need it.
Im from rts scene and i can tell you If u think stacking camps with an dominated creeps need micro skills u hardly need to work on yours
do ppl actually read those threads ?
cuz i dont..^^^^^^^^^^^^
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If too lazy to stack camps or micro a creep with a disable you can just find an aura creep (wolf usually) and put it to follow youself. Hotd adds a lot of hp to the creeps now so they can actually survive a couple aoe spells, and a wolf/kobold can help accelerate your farming speed with the extra damage or movement speed.
QQ relentless wastes time on a garbage can...
under 300 creeps in 50min is some good 5k standard, awaiting to gain those 500mmr to be there
i remember when i talked to bogidota through voip and he sounded like a human being but when i read the stuff he writes, its like hes another person
can't really be bothered to read all, but heal from mask mimics the one from ring of health.
if you are against any offlaner who isn't being zoned out religiously by your supports (and more likely is pulling/ganking) and is more likely a 1v1 situation you will always benefit from life steal. even more so on gyro coz he is almost melee and it's easy to put dmg on him.
also it's a part of bigger item which is a part of a bigger item.. hence me saying hotd is never a bad choice on gyro even if you don't get maximum value out of it. you rarely do, from any items.
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Can someone check replay and tell me why I lost this game? http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1517818324 What I did terible wrong or litle wrong what much better I couldve did in this game? ( Don`t tell me about not finished yasha I bought that after mega creeps ). So I don`t know exactly we had more than 10k exp lead and my team get caught 1 or 2 times and suddenly storm and sven very fat. I couldn`t carry them in teamfights I was too sqvishy or I don`t know.
In my perspective I couldve lasthit few creeps more in laning phase lets say 4-6 creps more or something. Maybe sange and yasha before mkb? I don`t know for a bit tankines and than satanic before mkb.
I really wanna learn from this game so if someone wanna check replay post here your thoughts and tell me if it was winnable what I needed to do much better? Game was 5k mmr average