i won't say its because of mechanil skillset/mouseclicks but because of intelect as i consider dota a high level game in that category
Infinite monkeys on typewriters with infinite time will write shakespear at some point. Given enough time and dedication anybody can reach top 10-5% of a game like Dota. Unless you're mentally or physically handicapped (i.e. no fingers, blind, mentally challenged).
But, seeing how a guy without arms is able to play top level cs:go (apparently he was even global elite at some point) being handicapped isn't an excuse.
^Then you know at least two persons who wont ever achieve 5k mmr, no matter how hard they try
Your parents.
ahahahahaAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAahaha
Hehe :'(
On topic, anyone can but the time required to achieve it will vary obviously
You can achieve almost everything with only hard work, but not the very top without talent.
once i reach 7k, i will send all these shittalkers on this forum a postcard of my shit. :>
>bad karma
>getting losing streak tonight :(
Yeah, probably, i've been playing for about a year, i'm at 3.2, climbed from 2.0 in just over a month, expecting to be 4K by the end of summer easy once i work on my last hitting and increasing my GPM, decision making and most of that other stuff like mechanics are already there I think, but of course, I still have much to learn. I think Dota is easy (my opinion) bad players just make it hard. >.> But of course, everyone is pro, someone reading this is probably getting mad like "who does this guy think he is" oh well. I think talent has a little bit to do with it though, when it comes to climbing the ranks fast, i just now recently started making a conscious effort to get better, all these earlier months, i never really tried.
For me
People can reach 5k Because
- DOTA can be considered a sport, like as in a physical sports, when we strive to get improve on something , we always train and practice, over and over again, which in the end, you would be become good players , like michael jordan, tiger woods, or lets say CHUAN, he was a basket player, but he was hospitalized, and unable to play basketball, while he was confine, he plays and practice DOTA everyday, and now look he's one of the DOTA best player , playing for the team IG.
-Believe me or not, Randomness and Probability has a thing do to with our mmr, The randomness and probability of picking horrible, non-english speaking, ego , trashtalking , throw players in your team always has impact on our mmr right? But what if The randomness and probability of picking good, cooperative, decent, and cheerful players in your team. THATS ALSO a has an impact on our mmr.
People can't improve to 5k
because they don't want to acknowledge that they suck. 3k people thinks they are 5k , 4k people think they are good players , this will be their biggest hindrance to improving themselves.
Cultural Differences, and kinds of people living that particular country
I just hate peenoise hating on other races like malaysian, singaporians, indonesian, putangina mo , bobo, hays. i just.wanna stop playing if i see that word in-game.
^ If you hear someone on your team from a cybercafe on his/her mic at daytime, disconnect as soon as possible. Figure out why yourself.
^I was playing on a good cybercafe, i wanna tryout the good gaming seats, people there ( i am gonna say at least decent, but they shout only just to their friends yet they dont trashtalk to their teammates), but when i see the condition in ghetto cybercafe. I dont want to even go inside. Everything inside their is horrible, theres no word available to compare it.
If time permits I might look up evidence based on genetics/physiology/cognitive science, but to answer your question, I do believe a handful of people playing at whatever mmr they deem "shit tier" currently (2k/3k/possibly 4k) can achieve 5k eventually (question is, how long would they take?) but certainly not everyone.
Everyone? Absolutely 0% chance.
Anyone? Very unlikely. I have many friends who have been playing dota for years and are still very bad, and it's not like they don't try to win/improve either.
A small % of the population with unrealized skill? Definitely.
I think another way to put it is this: suppose you divide 100 randomly selected people into 4 groups, all willing participants.
Group 1: Given 5 hours to study for a subject under ideal conditions, and then examined afterwards
Group 2: Given 10 hours to study for a subject under ideal conditions, and then examined afterwards
Group 3: Given 20 hours to study for a subject under ideal conditions, and then examined afterwards
Group 4: Given indefinite time to study for a subject under ideal conditions, and then examined afterwards
Group 1 will make clear the differences in natural talent/ability.
Group 4 is more or less based on "effort," but undoubtedly, even accounting for effort/determination, you will still have people who ace the subject and those who perform less well.
Just apply the same concept to dota.
^Ofc mental capabilities matter, but the question is whether anyone can get skilled in DotA if we do not set time restrictions.
Its hard to argue about the fact that different people would need different time period to do it, thats kinda obvious.
Well, if you don't set time restrictions, more and more people will reach 5k without a doubt. I'm still not convinced anyone can do it because I have lots of friends who struggle in the 3k/4k bracket despite playing dota for as long as I have (maybe they will...in 2 years, when 3k now becomes 5k...lol)
It seems like I misinterpreted part of your post from before. The difference then isn't whether or not we believe in mental/cognitive capability, but the degree to which it influences outcomes. I still think it's a pretty large factor, while you don't think it matters nearly as much.
Like I said, if time permits, I will investigate the matter myself.
I think my grandmother could not reach 5k. So had to answer no.
And your poll says nothing about time restrictions.
If you're asking if we give any person an infinite lifespan and infinite time to play and practice dota 2, then can they reach 5k mmr, well who cares? It's a meaningless question.
^consider you are a typical online gamer playing smthng like 2-3 hrs per day, and you can increase this time to up to 5 hrs on average, giving up some other free time activities.
I don't think its so much physical limitation as it is that some peoples brains just are not wired the right way to play well.
Can everyone be Valedictorian?... No.
Can everyone win the championship?...No.
Get everyone hold the record for the most of anything?...No.
It is not even a question of abilities. Although reality is 99% of people lack the abilities to play dota at what is currently 5k MMR solo que play. But this isn't even a question of abilities. Everyone can't hold a top percentile ranking simply because the few people who have it must be removed for anyone else to reach the mark... or you must add about another 500 dota players to the general pool to lose enough points such that a new 5k player can exist. All the supporting parts of the pyramid below them must exist also. There must be 4.9k, 4.8k, 4.7 and so on all the way down to 2.2k players to support the existence of a 5k player. That is why even the top pros did not get to 6k to 7k range the first year because there were not enough 5k players built up yet to lose their points to the guy worth 7k. More people had to fail to reach the mark before it was possible for anyone in the world to do it.
This ranking system is not like capitalism where more wealth can be created and over time there actually IS more wealth so more people can be wealthy. This is a winner takes, loser loses points system. You can't get to 5k except by knocking down those already there.
Even if the ability problem were not an obstacle (and it is)... still only a handful of people could reach 5k because its mathematically impossible for it to be otherwise. It's not debatable. It's not an opinion. It's an indisputable fact.
But it should not really be surprising that people delude themselves into expecting to continually gain abilities by simply repeating the same actions. For one thing their teachers probably told them this was possible, and afterall it is mostly children who play dota 2. Valve was so concerned about the reality that people would not continue to advance in MMR over time that they resisted showing it for years and only finally did allow it at all with tons of privacy protections in place. I do not believe people only play dota to see a rising MMR score, but it is certainly true that every player will reach a point where it will not go up anymore no matter what they do. For 90% of players that point will be below 3.2k MMR.
For the mass of dota 2 enthusiasts who are included in this group, remember that you don't need to be great at football, basketball, or baseball to enjoy those sports either. Everyday millions of people who can't jump very high or run very fast... and really could not if they spend all day practicing either - still enjoy watching pros play and cheering for their favorite teams. Maybe you play some with your friends at the park or the gym, but nobody gives you a number that points out how you are not becoming more pro-like at the sport you like to watch. Don't worry about it for dota 2 either. It's not possible, and its also rather silly to even want to be someone you are not.
^I understand ur point, relentless. The top will always be better than the average even if the average reaches the top - the top is always ahead. Yet, 5k is not 6k or 7k. I think if u just work on makin as few mistakes as possible, you can get 5k.
10,000 hours of dota and my mom would be 5k dota player. 100% sure of it. Most people have the ability to reach the 5k atm with investing time into dota. Im 100% sure. But will they use their abilities, do they have enough endurance? No. Ofc not. Because they will not ever play this much.
Its about the possibility.
Someone talked about his grandmother in this thread. If she was willing and eager to learn, it might be possible. but is she willing? no ofc not. why should she? But the possibility is there.
I havent read any of your post im just here to say that theres 2 prime factors to achieve higher SOLO mmr. ( i mostly play solo ranked )
Knowledge and luck. Knowledge is simple its about knowing counters, executing combos, mechanic etc.
On the other end its 90% luck imo. One time youll be facing a 4v5 because one ragequit/dc the other time youll be paired with a feeder who all mute us and ends up 0-24. Sometimes you get carried by 1 smurf who obviously mastered his hero and sometimes you get destroyed by a stack when your team has 0 chemistry.
I play solo rank mostly for fun but also because i assume people would play more seriously but thats not the case at all. There is alot of random who keeps stupid heros they cant even play and such even at 4k
Im a 4k player and i dont consider myself very high skilled. I just had the chance of getting carried more often and having less feeder/disconnect on my side. Sometimes when i carry my team i feel good but in the end its probably because they had inflated mmr account, just because they were lucky ;)
No, not anyone can be 5k.
You need a certain amount of talent for that. I'm serious.
You can learn and train, but I don't think everyone can achieve 5k.
rofl. Everyone in my city call me trash even though I have easily get 4.5k at start and up it to 5 playing axe/riki (when slark was very popular).
I can say any retard can get 5k easy if he wants it.
I only don't get why ppl playing fairly +- good have some shit rating (like 3.8 -4.2k). probably they are doing somthing wrong
Relentless, "everyone at a time" and "anyone" have different meanings. You are arguing with somethhing no one was stating (again).
Chosen to be a Batman. You know, it's good to be a kick-ass multi-billionaire.
@TL;DR.
I would say no. Example:
I would not get to 5k. EVER. I wonder If I'll ever get to 2k. (sadface)
Maybe, its... BECAUSE REASONS!
Reasons:
1.Everything described in triple's post.
2.Lack of time, because of lief.
3.I'm horrible.
@Triple:
Lie spotted.
You were in HS since your last page, you struggled, but you was #3kthrash.
3k is DEFINITELY not 1k.
(played in 3.4-4k when was doing drama for 6kAMlostin1kgame)
@Krebs
About a half of my games were in dota1, and then I came here. Of course, no one can magically get HS in his/her first games.
TripleSteal you still don't seem to have grasped that I am pointing out the obvious and indisputable fact that both everyone and anyone can't reach 5k MMR. It is mathematically impossible for more than a fraction of a percent of players to be 5k MMR simultaneously, and it is also impossible for the vast majority of players to achieve that rank in any circumstance with any amount of practice. If they bought an account at 5k MMR, and then rebought the credential every time they lost 100 points and played all their games getting used to that level of play for a year, nearly all players would still remain too slow to hold a 5k account at 50% winrate. What they learn does not matter because the games will be lost more than 50% of the time when they lose a quick draw battle to someone with legitimate skills who disables them faster than the average player can even perceive. This means lost teamfight => lost game. Its really not complicated at all. Solo MMR is traded over time to the faster fingers and that's all there is to it. A tiny amount of knowledge advantage is held in general by higher MMR players, and they are on average slightly more intelligent but that's merely a coincidence. Who has more MMR has almost entirely to do with who is faster and more accurate with finger motions and can see the split second action of the game better.
The intelligence, strategy, and teamwork factors really don't become important enough to consistently win games unless you are actually ON A TEAM, not in solo que.
Constantly. CONSTANTLY in page 1 games with the very highest MMR players I see bone-headed moves made entirely on presumption that they will be faster than the opponents. So very many tactics that people learn (because they work) while gaining MMR are actually stupid against opponents of similar skill. This applies to a lot of you people who are 5k and really think you should be able to make 5.5k or 6k but can't ever seem to pull it off. You are actually making tons of mistakes because the way you play the game is basically wrong for playing against people as fast as you. You learned to play solo que style where you win because you are faster. And that is really not how dota works. The supposed "game knowledge" of many super high MMR players is a bunch of garbage and some of you who have been 5k to 6k for over a year know it. You see people still used to beating everyone merely on speed feeding in your games and you may take them from account buyers. But mostly they are just new to the concept that the enemy isn't too slow to react to an attack.
Juking Primarily works because you are faster to perceive and adjust your movement than the enemy. Against a similarly skilled player jukes almost always fail. Laning is full to the brim of juking, constantly adjusting the precise distance between your hero and the other heroes is what decides who wins the lasthit and harassment battle every game. It is only when the skill levels are very close that hero choices matter.
Anyone can`t reach 5k. How many players are out there who are really trying and their mmr can`t be higher than 3500 or 4000 no matter how hard they try, so answer is that 100% 5k can`t be anyone.
Why dear God, cant Relentless for ONCE write a post that is shorter then 100 words. Will i live long enough to actually experience that :O
@Relentless
basically u just think that most people are unable to reach high mmr with any effort, while I believe nearly anyone can by playing this game for years, and that's it. i dont think either of the point can be proved w/o correctly set experiments on a very long time period (~100 participants, control groups, random assignment, etc. etc.)
well he is right, there are a lot of boneheaded/stupid people with very high mmr simply because they're good at feeding on retards
if u put them in an actual competitive match with 5 vs 5 competent players they won't perform well at all
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http://strawpoll.me/4465912
There was quite an interesting discussion on one of the threads, so I decided to use strawpoll cz I'm curious what is the most common opinion.
So, the very basic arguments:
Anyone can achieve 5k with enough effort, because:
-DotA skill relies on how experienced you are and physical limitations do not matter
-You can just spend more time on dota and progress faster than the rest of community
-It works for other online game ladders, where everoyone with enough effort can achieve the very top
-I got to 5k level despite improving really slowly, just by playing for many years
Most people cant achieve 5k level, because:
-psychological issues dont let them improve (dunning-kriger, etc.)
-MMR represents relative skill distribution, and everyone cant reach the very top
-Talent does matter, and people are limited in their capacities in terms of improving in DotA. Many people just cant achieve this level theorically.
-Some people have over 5k games and still cant get out of Normal Skill bracket, despite trying to improve and being clever IRL.
If you got other points not mentioned here, please post them and I'll add them to the list above.