General DiscussionJuggernaut - too strong now?

maybe you should try to play him more in this patch, and then post your opinion on his OPness or UPness.
btw in last 5 days you played against jugger only once, i don't see how that's every game.

play him yourself then. maybe you'll get out of 1k with him

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1104947377

Unfortunately that's pretty true, but what really pissed me off is how Omnislash can ignore evasion. Each time I activated Windrun against juggernaut he slashed the hell out of me. So it's like some kind of free Monkey King Bar now? And I've played Juggernaut before and won most of the time with him.

These last patches keep making him more ridiculous.

6.83:
Base agility increased from 20 to 26
Blade Dance critical strike chance rescaled from 15/20/25/35% to 20/25/30/35%

6.82:
The following abilities no longer cancel Blade Fury: Chronosphere, Toss, Black Hole, Global Silence, Doom.
Blade Fury cooldown from 30/27/24/21 to 30/26/22/18

6.81b:
Omnislash damage per slash rescaled from 175-250 to 200-225
Base Attack Time improved from 1.5 to 1.4

6.81:
Base attack time improved from 1.6 to 1.5

6.80:
Blade Fury cooldown reduced from 30/28/26/24 to 30/27/24/21

6.79:
Healing Ward movement speed increased from 300 to 450
Omnislash Scepter cooldown reduced from 110/100/90 to 70
Omnislash no longer stops if the target is Ethereal (it still doesn't do damage)
Fixed not being able to use items during Omnislash

Though by looking at this, it looks like Blade Fury gets buffed too often actually, and I'm starting to find it very annoying to fight against him even more.

Currently as of right now his winrate is 55.33% in 6.83. That's just like how Spectre was at the beginning of 6.82 and I'm hoping that they'll increase the cool downs on some of Juggernaut's abilities.

He gets 6 more attack, in the hands of a capable player that's probably 5-10 extra last hits - no more. In the hands of a person not good at last hit, that's a lot more. Improves his early game a little but nothing more..

Blade fury loses its effectiveness lategame and in fact becomes a hindrance

all these op agility carries with luck based gimmicks that make them worse are fucking annoying
at least juggernaut's op without them

evasion dodges ATTACKS. not spells. it doesn't matter if a spell deals physical damage, you can't evade it. so no free invulnerability to exorcism either, which would be bullshit. if omnislash dealt magical damage instead would you stop complaining about it then? what about assassinate, which is clearly sniper firing his gun, which deals magical damage.

tons of carries have damaging ultimate, but god forbid because juggernaut's is physical damage, that makes him unfair?

anyways icefrog buffs a hero until they get played. juggernaut rarely sees play, buffing him makes him be played more, and then when he gets popular because people realise he's strong, then he nerfs them.

Juggernaut becamse op in 6.81b...
Now he's a fucking monster and I will start picking him a lot more often.

Btw, Omniknight counters him so well...

As what flower said : btw in last 5 days you played against jugger only once, i don't see how that's every game.
As what you said : And I've played Juggernaut before and won most of the time with him.
I see that u have only played him for 8 matches and won 6 out of them.

From the match you posted.
U have huskar, medu, ember in your team and you go crys & deso?
Don't you think that if you have gone orchid / hex /ghost would have been better?? =,=
Your crystal maiden went for mystic staff instead of ghost?

You needa get out of your normal skill bracket dude=)

why do you feel entitled to post about hero balance when youre in normal skill

get off this forum and work on your mechanics

the hero has a lot of problems. IMO this change makes him even better in the games that he should do well in, but still leaves him useless or weak in the ones where he can't do much anyway.

Heroes like Void or Slark on the other hand don't really care too much about lineups, not to say that counters don't exist, but they are pretty dominant heroes against most teams, and can still make themselves useful in games through other means.If Juggernaut can't pull off a good ultimate, then you are left with a hero who really can't take on most carries without a significant advantage. His natural DPS isn't that impressive, and he is pretty squishy too.

Don't get me wrong, I don't consider the hero weak, I just do not think he is OP

Juggernaut natural dps is one of the highest of the game ....

He have a permanent set of 64% steroids (pa is at 52.5% -but got blink strike)

^ I think, you've meant 35%

I guess I didn't word it properly. On paper the DPS is there, but in a real game its not that impressive, and even if you go for say, 4 or even 5 DPS items, you don't have the bulk to actually fight a lot of other heroes head on. If you choose to get that bulk, then your damage output is low

I mean if we look at your build which I have nothing against, travels/dagger/mjol/abyssal/butterfly/mkb, your DPS is pretty solid at 1.5k, but can you really take anyone on with 7k physical EHP? That is with butterfly as well, and becomes ~4k if your opponents have mkb. That just isn't enough, especially without a BKB. This fits with what I said before, this change just means he becomes a little better in the games where he is already effective, but he still has a very difficult time against a lot of lineups which balances him.

No epsik-kun, don't forget about his bat !

How did you use the bat amplification damage, is this wrong 1.7/1.4 * 1.35 = 1.639?

doesn't he have 1.5 ? edit my bad he indeed have 1.4 bat, so it's indeed 1.7/1.4 * 1.35 that i should have done :p

So butter mjol phase have arround 830 dps (not counting lightning)
and abyssal on top of it put it to 1167 (not counting lightning)
~1650 with mkb (not counting lightning)

so about 4 sec to kill a 7000ehp target (3k hp with 22 armor) (or 2k hp with 40 armor)
Heroes that reach that number of ehp don't buy ghost (mb just tb for an eb, but that's pretty uncommon)
So it's not that hard to kill them.

However i admit i've trouble versus medusa, since she can reach that ehp pretty easily

wow much stronk very buff

Omnishlash has never been affected by evasion its only the extra hits in between the slashes that gets affected and you only get extra hits if you have enought attackspeed there some graph out there showing the potential max extra hits.