No, I think it has to do with performance in games. You could be an excellent drafter but horrible player with bad in-game common sense.
drafting in pubs is just useless fluff outside of banning the extremely OP heroes (like pre patch lycan)
I start every captains mode match with lines:
"hi, I like to play support"
"Lich, CM, Dazzle or Veno are best for me"
if it's captains draft, I name available supports that I can play.
I would disagree on this with Sampson (even though he is a better player). As a CCG/TCG junkie (MTG, Invasion, MMDoC, Heathstone etc.) I've always regarded the picking phase as "making the deck" you are playing. You are not guaranteed to have the "right cards" when they are more needed, but tailoring it to both be a good deck independently and have answers to what your enemy is playing is quite crucial.
Interestingly, my Win Rate when I play CM/CD is way higher than of the AP, even if I don't get to Captain.
hmm i dont see how you could be a great drafter with bad in-game common sense... they're kinda correlated...
perhaps execution ? that's a different area of skill
@samp
define "useless fluff".
generally i'm too lazy to captain, hence why i choose CM > AP as a secondary reason, but recently i just decided to check up some more guides on playdota
came across a nice CM/CD drafting explanation and so far it's 2 for 2 in terms of being captain and proceeding to win.
even got some nice compliments for the draft, no worries, i don't take it to heart.
@kawaii
i agree with you, you can have all the best cards or items or whatever you want, but if it doesn't work well together, or can't work without one another, what's the point?
i find that being able to pick/counter-pick correctly is a skill in itself, idk
What Soultrap said.
It's pointless to give me Dazzle, Omni or Shadow Demon because I suck with them. No matter what synergy or who these heroes would counter, in my hands they are useless. Unless it's a stomp and I can do whatever I want, of course.
Almost no one gets their MMR from CM games by doing "pro" drafts, so no. But drafting good and unexpectable strategies definitely makes you a better player because that means you know the powers and counters of all the heroes well.
as some people have stated it does not matter if you make the 'best' draft possible when you play in a pub you do not know who works best with what hero and best with what comp. Sure you will get the person who saying give me X Y an Z but he might not even know what heroes he is good with
I just started to play some CM regularly and I have to say I win games right at the draft stage. I'm at 4,1k mmr and I feel like the other team always gets drafted by a braindead dummy that has no clue what to do. Or even worse, he wants to play something, and builds around it.
I really feel like playing CM/CD is a bit of a gamble, because if you don't get a captain and idiot drafts for your team, it is not easy to pull a win.
What works for me is to draft a really strong, stun/disable heavy trilane, with offlane that will not feed against the other teams pick and if you know pubs, they start to rage rather quickly, you smash them hard first 15 minutes, they lose morale, start flaming, calling gg report this noob and shit, and the game is won.
Yes, drafting is extremely important - even in AP. Let me paint an image for you.
You have 1 carry, 1 support, 1 mid, 1 offlane, and a jungler (doom?). You guys lose in 20 minutes. Everyone is bitching that mid is 2-4, everyone is bitching at the low amount of farm on the carry, and no one is bitching at the jungler. He has the most gpm/items/he might even be 2-0. He feels like his team let HIM down, "God, you guys dropped the ball."
But what most likely actually happened, ironically, was that the doom jungle pick fucked up everything. It made for less ward vision (1 support buying courier/upgrade/wards/sentries/dust all while getting 0 last hits solo lane supporting or a tiny sum from pulling), it made for weaker lanes that got crushed, it made for an absence of heroes that can go off the map for long enough to smoke gank mid and regain some stability there, the offlane is getting crushed 3 v 1 with their supports getting ample farm/levels from pulls while their offlane is against 2 v 1, so he's doing quite well. All the while, you have your Doom with a 7 minute midas, great.
Yes, people focus on the "statistics" (kdr, gpm, absolute farm of the carry, etc.) when people lose. Often times, more often than I care to notice myself, it's just a fuck fest of bad lanes. If you can pick the right heroes to complete your team while being good or resilient against the enemy team, you will win way more games. It's very important.
I don't want to make it seem as if jungle is never good - it can be for several reasons. It's just often times not good, and it often results in 20 minute losses.
I dont get why everyone believes that they have the 'super secret' method to drafting in pubs.....
I think it's a legitimate thing to say that cm/cd are just modes where it's easier to win games cuz ppl tend to
#1 be less of a dick/throw
#2 high skilled mmr players don't play cm/cd so if you're mediocore, you suddenly become a really good player in the cm/cd player pool.
Yeah it's useful skill, but can be double edged sword, If the player's skill is not sufficient to play that hero.
I got into some players who were saying "Pick riki or bloodseeker now, they're always 'gudd' " when we needed support, bur some of those players turned out to be executing fine... So those things are not quite correlated.
Noobs often blame everything on picks better players know what to pick and why but also how to play it which is the difference.
Also noobs tend to pick what they can play and not what is needed.
drafting in theory works good with 5 people who can actually play the heroes. You can have the prefect early push lineup and can totally fail. Such as early push lineup that takes all outer towers in 20-30 mintues and still lose. Or you can draft the best AOE, wombo combo but the players don't work well to coordinate stuns etc...
It's like you have the prefect counter to their AOE/stun combo and then your riki is level 10 with 0 points in cloud and won't go in and cloud etc... Or you could have rhasta, warlock, venomancer and pugna and won't push base til 50 mintues etc....
Then again if you play alot of ranked there's that CM that feeds and never frostbite to start a fight. That mirana that ults after everyone dies etc....
Much sadness, still play ranked every now and then. But always play during daylight hours such as 10am-10pm. Never at 2am etc...
@vasile
i said i was also confused...
i didn't say execution and drafting is correlated, i said, "i think drafting well, is correlated to "in-game knowledge/common sense".
there is no super secret method, no one has said so. i suppose if you were making an exaggeration and belittling other opinions, then that would be an understandable perspective to have...
my experiences have led me to believe that picks/bans, are a lot more crucial and are vital stages in terms of dictating the % of winning or losing. of course, it isn't the only indicator.
asking people what they play best with, and trusting what they say - is all part of being captain.
i still consider it a skill in itself. picking heroes suitable for teammate's specific play-style, as well as drafting a strong team, is all part of the drafting/captain process, no?
high skilled players don't play cm/cd? wut
If you look at the highest skilled pub games, they are invariably always all pick.
Proof: I just sampled it and from past experience. Out of the top games the first non-ap game was page 13 ability draft. And the first cd on page 19 and cm on page 21.
^
why is that so?
i dont like chancing AP most of the time, the % of getting a competent draft is much lower in my experience, and ppl are generally less serious
it definitely matters, a lot of my lost games was due to not thinking when picking. Like feeling like picking weaver when the enemy has silence, or feeling like picking nature's prophet knowing full well subconsciously that 3k supports are shit and don't even ward, let alone single pull or gank
In ranked AP you have a chance that everyone pick what they can actually play, resulting in a better game.
@₰ϗ҉ﮎєє
the reason why is because to make a proper draft you MUST know all 4 of your teams AND all 5 of your opponents. Banning invoker vs a team that NOBODY plays invoker is in a sense a horrible draft. Look at 90% of the drafts against team EG, the majority of the bans are to take mid heroes away from RTZ because EG revolves usually revolves around RTZ not feeding.
From what I have seen it is mostly just my lower MM friends who play CM all the time because they like blaming the drafts rather than their own personal skill for losses.
@6_din_49
That seems like a valid point, however, it still seems common for people to pick what they "want" to play, whether or not they can play it, or if it puts the team at a disadvantage.
Just some random games off by memory, a couple AP games I had a PA support and a slark support due to the fact that we had 4-5 cores... Surprisingly, we won. But most games like that wouldn't stand a chance.
@samp
It's not entirely the draft nor entirely your own skill level that determines whether or not you win a game. It's both those things and much more. Teamwork, communication, execution, etc.
I don't see how AP works better in terms of being balanced. You can still look at what heroes they play, except now you can actually ban them. Why would you ban an invoker if no one plays invoker?
From what I've seen, it is mostly just the lower MM people who like to blame their teammates (supports usually), rather than then themselves.
more common than not people will pick heroes they are comfortable with. I think it is egotistical that you believe that you are at a level above your teammates that you know what is better for them than they do. If you think that your team is always picking sub optimal lineups guess what? The other team has a HIGHER chance of picking sub optimal lineups (because you are picking the 'right' hero for yourself. Think what you wish but it is pretty obvious when you look at all the top matches and see how no top players will pick CM for the reasons I stated
So if I queue CM and I disagree with elo hell, I think it exists?
Quite the black and white thinking there.
Yes, more common than not, people will pick what they want to pick. Thank you for agreeing with me. I never said I was at a level above my teammates. I never said I know what is better for them than they do.
I said, "do you consider drafting/knowing who to pick/ban as a legitimate skill that ties into mmr".
Where again simpson, have I stated that I am blaming my teammates? I am simply talking about the pick/draft phase of the game. I am simply discussing whether or not it's a crucial part of the game, and furthermore, to debate whether or not "being able to pick what's best for the scenario consistently, as a valid indicator of skill in terms of MMR".
Zenoth had made a thread that listed some of the things that contribute to your OVERALL MMR. To think that it solely relies on your skill and "your skill alone" just goes to show me how dumb you really are, simpson. Then to jump to the other-side of the spectrum and make condescending accusations. i.e. "You think you're so good but you're really not."
This is not what I'm saying, nor is it relevant. (Part of the reason why I want you banned. You do a lot of crying and bitching about others flaming you but you do a shit ton of flaming yourself).
So take my example of "teams picking sub-optimal lineups" and apply it to the other team. Did I say that the other team had an equal or better chance @ winning, for possibly having a 4-5 core lineup? No. No I did not. You did. You are the one trying to make it so. I'm going to ask you to: mother-fucking-stop-that-shit-bro.
Last but not least, you are using a selective pool of data (saying that since pros pick AP more often than CM, that means anyone who plays CM is delusional/believes in elo hell). Is it not possible, that the range of players you are choosing to use for your argument, are ALREADY top-notch? Which means they have less chances of internal disputes, which means less chances of completely imbalanced games. How? Well let's see, the skill bracket of someone 5k+ MMR is generally known to be officially "better than average/pro".
Each bracket, with exception to 1k - 2k MMR (sad shit), generally thinks THEY KNOW IT ALL. This also means skill level =/= what they say they're skill level is.
Why would you spend your time chancing stupid games like this? Wouldn't it be more logical to attempt to force a team with more synergy until you reach the point where "skill level = what they say they're skill level is". This doesn't mean "I'm better'. This doesn't mean "My teammates are shit". This does mean "I am going to try and draft something strong with the help of guides, communication and experience, instead of leaving it to chance?
You say that both teams are balanced, and that both teams have a chance of having sub-optimal lineups.
Again, thank you for agreeing with me.
Would it not be smarter, to try and draft an optimal lineup vs a sub-optimal lineup?
Since it's "balanced", wouldn't the pick advantages/disadvantages have a much more dramatic effect on the game?
It's like saying ___ 5k player will have absolutely no trouble with getting excellent results in low tier games, and will perform the same all throughout majority of their games when climbing through the ranks.
Another way of describing what you're saying "you can do well with any hero in any game as long as you have the skill".
I call bullshit.
Lol this kids passive aggressive flaming of my name (I am going to cry to get you banned) -_-
You DO believe you are better than the people in your bracket because you 'believe' your picks are more optimal than your teammates. Having a 4-5 core line up might not work in professional play BUT in the lower brackets this could work because they are not skilled enough to punish that type of greed.
small sample size? 21 pages before the FIRST captains mode. How many pages do you need before it changes your mind?100?200?1000?
Get off your delusional high horse because it is quite obvious you do not understand how the dota meta works.
No I did not.
I said, do you think PICKS themselves matter.
To be able to PICK well can give you a huge advantage, no?
So TRYING to pick well is better than not, right?
But TRYING doesn't mean I AM does it? What world you live in simpson?
You are trying to because you believe that your teammates can not pick what they believe to win the game. Do you think your teammates are picking heroes that they think will lose them the game?
No. I think progressively as you move higher up in the MMR ranking, the chances to have teammates that pick their most wanted heroes instead of choosing based on both comfort/suitability towards the game-lineup, will diminish or lower.
If you can argue this point, go ahead.
I don't think they pick to LOSE intentionally, but I do think that picks MATTER.
You can take a 3k MMR BS player and put him up against most 4k MMR mid players and he'd still fair well due to PURE ADVANTAGE.
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or am i stating the obvious