General Discussion

General DiscussionGlimmer vs Force vs Urn

Glimmer vs Force vs Urn in General Discussion
Scott Sterling

    When playing support I have difficulty knowing which of my core items to get first in any given match. Typically after Arcane Boots/Wand/Lace I will get either a Glimmer, Force, or Urn. I'm not sure how I should be prioritizing them though. Which scenarios do you grab Force before Glimmer? Which scenarios do you grab Urn before Force/Glimmer?

    Aggressive Perfector

      buy urn if no one else in the team has one. buy force staff against melee cores and riki/clockwerk. glimmer cape against magic burst damage heroes.

      Scott Sterling

        Commended, ty!

        Are there any enemy melee cores that you would prefer to have Glimmer against, before your Force? Or are there no exceptions?

        Ce commentaire a été édité
        boop got ur nose

          I would recommend glimmer vs slark because force staff cannot break the leash and the spell resist is good against the burst from dark pact. Urn is not good vs him for obvious reasons. I am not sure about other carries but just keep in mind the limitations of force staff and when invis/spell resist is crucial.

          BSJ'S Final Form

            Situational.

            ♥♦ GED ♣♠

              I agree with the comments above. Urn is a good first pick when your team is getting lots of kills in the early and/or midgame. In those scenarios urn can turn advantage into snowball effect. In any close match you should prioritize glimmer or force staff for the first pick.

              Бородатый воин любви

                Glimmer is also better than Force against PL (since he can quickly close the gap with phanton rush) and Lycan (though it becomes worse if he goes Necro3).

                Zemo-san

                  there are pretty bad heroes to go urn on imho

                  like I avoid it with cm for example even tho I focus on more ganks with her than on lich for example but cm is just to squishy to go for a urn since her defense is practically non existent, thus glimmer and forcestaff might be a better option

                  also I feel so much more useful as a support with tranquil instead of arcane boots even tho it is somewhat counter intuitive, 2 patches ago I would spam arcane into greaves on almost any support hero I played

                  I think it is due to the support item costs being so up the sky, I still don't understand these decisions tbh

                  HanYolo

                    Phase boots are underrated on supports. They are not more expensive than typical mana boots but they give you the important move speed to stay out of trouble. After that shadowblade is usually a safe option

                    ETdAWESOME

                      ^OK SCREW IT. THIS HANSOLO IS CLEARLY A TROLL AT THIS POINT. Nobody is this psychotic.

                      No 1 Happiest Girl in The...

                        @op against pa glimmer is better too than force staff. Or any other hero with chase potential

                        ETdAWESOME

                          Btw RIP Mek no love anymore

                          HanYolo

                            I mean fine if you want to go glimmer, but it doesn't last Long and thy can usually still find you easily. Not with shadowblade. I thought this was obvious. I'm not saying you skip mana boots either, just that phaseboots are underrated.

                            Scott Sterling

                              Phase boots are underrated on supports. They are not more expensive than typical mana boots but they give you the important move speed to stay out of trouble. After that shadowblade is usually a safe option

                              Wrong thread man, we're talking about Urn/Force/Glimmer. Boots is not really in the discussion.

                              @op against pa glimmer is better too than force staff. Or any other hero with chase potential

                              I feel like most all melee carries have some chase potential, but I've only experience a very limited slice of the pool in my limited play time. This is what led me to ask the question in the first place. Glimmer vs magic and Force vs physical is a good rule of thumb to go by, but there is subtlety that I am missing. And I frankly had no idea when Urn was a good pickup except maybe against heal/regen heavy lineups. It sounds like Urn itemizations are dictated more by in-game momentum than draft choices, however, which was cool to learn.

                              Ce commentaire a été édité
                              HanYolo

                                It's about support core items. If someone made a thread deciding about carry core items and was trying to decide between glimmer and forcestaff, we owe it to the poster to tell him he should buy things like Daedalus and butterfly.

                                Similarly, for supports there are alternative core items that can replace forcestaff and glimmer. Just experiment a bit and you'll understand.

                                Scott Sterling

                                  I understand there are items outside of Glimmer/Force/Urn, but my question related directly to it. It's right there in the thread title. Check it out.

                                  GLIMMER VS FORCE VS URN

                                  I think you're just trying to say something for the sake of saying something.

                                  HanYolo

                                    The point is you don't have to consider glimmer or force at all with the proper foundations (phase and sb). I thought it'd be interesting to consider since most people would read a thread like this assuming it is completely acceptable to just buy mana boots before deciding on "support core items" like glimmer and force. And it's threads like these that perpetuate so many myths and blind acceptance of standard builds. Just "following the meta" while countless normal skills get sucked in not knowing why they are buying those items.

                                    HanYolo

                                      Too bad you don't own the rights to discussion points, although I can't fathom why for some reason you feel like you have some control over what I want to say. I don't deny you are asking about 3 specific items. But my points are still highly relevant to the theme.

                                      Bring it up with the mods if you think they are inappropriate.

                                      Scott Sterling

                                        Relax, I'm not trying to infringe on your 1st amendment with my oppressive meta. But my question was not 'what cores should I consider as a support' because the only real answer I'm going to receive is "It depends on a lot of stuff, just go play the game". But if I ask a very focused question "When choosing between Urn, Force, or Glimmer what do I consider?" I'm more likely to receive information I can actually use.

                                        I recognize you are trying to help, you just aren't being very effective is what I'm trying to point out.

                                        J
                                        J

                                          Glimmer / force / urn is situational as mentioned on top. I'd like to add ghost scepter when dealing with PA / lycan / Slark. Since glimmer can be dusted, you're screwed once they bought some dust. With ghost u can TP safely if getting chased, or buy more time for backups.

                                          Regarding phase and SB, it gives damage (and aspd in case of SB) and most supports doesn't 'use' attack speed and attack to be fully efficient, making the items cost - ineffective. In contrary, the support items mentioned above gives various benefit to the user AND his allies (arcane giving mana to your cores, tranquil giving you constant presence on the maps because of regeneration, force / glimmer can be used to save your friend also). This makes them very cost-efficient, since supports have to cover their team needs rather than their own heroes, it more makes more sense to build them.

                                          TheMaverick427

                                            Urn: Should generally have one on each team. If you don't need an item just to stay alive then urn is generally decent.

                                            Force: best vs heroes who want to jump on a person but after that are not very mobile. Examples include Sven, Ursa, Riki and Clock.

                                            Glimmer: Good when they have lots of magic damage or of they're heroes who get lots of small items quicky and don't want to carry dust around. Also good if you're not the only target they want to jump since then you can glimmer whoever they go on. Loses effectiveness when you already have an invis hero on the team since they'll probably have dust already.

                                            Ghost Sceptre: Best defensive option against heroes with only physical damage or that cant always use their magic damage. Examples include PA, Slark and Jugg. Big downside is that it doesn't protect you from magic damage and you can't save teammates with it.

                                            No 1 Happiest Girl in The...

                                              @op urn is always a good pickup in any game as a supp, cause the build up is nice. You got armor from ring, mana regen and magic damage block from raindrop, then a bit of stats which is always helpful for a sup.
                                              And as like @TheMaverick427 said fs is good against hero that useless after they jump with blink or their skill.

                                              Kenny Dope

                                                Its situational. I think urn is a go to item if you are playing roamer such as BH or earth spirit. If you are playing hard support glimmer is good item after boots and wand bcs carries usually target you and most of the time they dont have dust ready, so you can have extra time disabling them or your allies helping you